CatholicAndFanatical Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 Some more information about the Cloak of Juan Diego, in regards to the eyes of the Blessed Mother. The scientist began his study in 1979. He magnified the iris of the Virgin's eyes 2,500 times and, through mathematical and optical procedures, was able to identify all the people imprinted in the eyes. The eyes reflect the witnesses of the Guadalupan miracle the moment Juan Diego unfurled his tilma before the bishop, according to Tonsmann. In the eyes, Tonsmann believes, it is possible to discern a seated Indian, who is looking up to the heavens; the profile of a balding, elderly man with a white beard, much like the portrait of Bishop Zumárraga painted by Miguel Cabrera to depict the miracle; and a younger man, in all probability interpreter Juan González. Also present is an Indian, likely Juan Diego, of striking features with a beard and mustache, who unfolds his own tilma before the bishop; a woman of dark complexion, possibly a Negro slave who was in the bishop's service; and a man with Spanish features who looks on pensively, stroking his beard with his hand. In summary, the Virgin's eyes bear a kind of instant picture of what occurred at the moment the image was unveiled in front of the bishop, Tonsmann says. Moreover, in the center of the pupils, on a much more reduced scale, another scene can be perceived, independent of the first, the scientist contends. It is that of an Indian family made up of a woman, a man and several children. In the right eye, other people who are standing appear behind the woman. Tonsmann ventured an explanation for this second image in the Virgin's eyes. He believes it is a message kept hidden until modern technology was able to discover it just when it is needed. "This could be the case of the picture of the family in the center of the Virgin's eye," the scientist said, "at a time when the family is under serious attack in our modern world." (Zenit) no human, especially in the 1500's would be able to put such a scene in such a small area like a pupil. With God, anything is possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce S Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 Hey, I'm the guy begging to KEEP the Catholics there. Grin. I'm willing to TAKE IT as well as dish it. I'm rather frustrated that you guys are not there to play with. But, going back to the stuff posted on Juan[the mystery man] Diego. I DID NOT QUOTE ANTI CATHOLICS here, but gave ONLY quotations from SERIOUS DEVOTED Catholics, contemporaneous to the events, in CHARGE of the investigations, and THEY, were the ones that claimed it is a fake. No one addressed that, and I doubt any one will. It is stuff like this blindness, and REQUIRED lockstepping over cliffs, that caused me to leave the Catholic Church. There is more to it than that, of course. But ... Starting first over in ChristianForums.com I noticed that the Catholics were content to requote proof texts all day to me [zzzzzz] really, they were NOT ever willing to engage in contemporary issues, things in the news, and such. I found that odd. They also did the same thing on that site that gets done on the Christian forum, stiffle full interplay between dissenters, only this was the Catholic and Orthodox moderators. So, doctrines are fine, everyone has them, proof texts too to toss out against each other, those issues have been tossed around since 1520, so I doubt much will ever come out of that mode, however, contemporary current issues are fresh, and interesting to me. I'm open to a real disussion on Juan Diego, if anyone wants to engage. And in the Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce S Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 (edited) if you look in the eyes of the Virgin Mary on the cloak, you will see an image of Juan Diego. Im sorry, they didnt have that type of technology in the 1500's. I Trust the Church. And wouldnt that 'new' cloak deteriorated by now? I saw that too on EWTN, it was interesting the eye thing. But that could be just an invention of the artist, since no one knows what Juan looked like, the IMAGE I saw on EWTN looked definately SPANISH, not Mexican pureblood to me. Post a pic of the eye, lets take a looksee, if it is THERE, I'm sure there are pics of it to counteract the other stuff, if NOT, wonder why? AND the pics should be done by OUTSIDERS without an interest in the outcome to fully support those claims, going on FAITH again alone, undermines the proof offered. The cloak would have deteriorated, BUT another specialist having examined it, a CATHOLIC specialist, reported back that the fibers are NOT Mauguay [sp?] but PALM, and that is another discrepancy, that isn't being dealt with. Edited December 23, 2003 by Bruce S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce S Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 (edited) No, what differentiates Catholics from Protestants is that Catholics have an Authority to look to, prots are alone in their journey, by no fault but their own. The Church is here to guide us in our life to Christ. Jesus was not going to leave us stranded in life. He gave us a Church to help us Thank you for the STATEMENT OF FAITH. Grin. Like I didn't KNOW that you believe in the Magisterium, implicitly, completely, and without questioning? I was YOU for twenty years, don't forget that. Authority must EARN authority .... The Catholic Church has a pretty poor record in that area in the past few years. I'm NOT going to come here and dump and run the sins of the past few years, did that already over on the other site, and NO ONE bothered to actually ENGAGE on the FACTS I presented, nor do they seem to want to here with Juan, oh well, say a Rosary for me. Faith is wonderful, but faith without support undermines the REAL things that Catholics have going for them, and there are PLENTY. Authority is WRONG too often, want to engage on this one? The recent scandals have conclusively shown that human leadership makes some pretty massive mistakes on VERY serious matters. Pull out your CCC and check these references, and let me have a Catholic explain these two for me. These ones baffle... #795 Catechism of Catholic Church, 1994 #460 Catechism of Catholic Church, 1994 Edited December 23, 2003 by Bruce S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJS Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 Hey, I'm the guy begging to KEEP the Catholics there. Grin. I'm willing to TAKE IT as well as dish it. I'm rather frustrated that you guys are not there to play with. :rolling: This is what a normal Catholic's post looks like after the admin is done with it at the Christian (trying not to laugh) forum. You guys have no idea what Catholics believe do you? MODERATOR NOTE: Post edited - TOS 17 violation We do NOT Worship MaryWe believe that MODERATORS NOTE: Post edited - TOS 6 violation 800 billion people did NOT die during the iquisition And this site proves it: MODERATOR NOTE: Post edited - TOS 17 violation We believe in the real presence because it says in verse MODERATOR NOTE: Post edited - violation because poster used Catholic Bible And you wonder why there are no Catholics there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleflower+JMJ Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 whoa. talk about wipe out. ^_^ welcome RJS to phatmass!! :D glad your here!! ^_^ and you too bruce! GOD BLESS YOU BOTH!!! PAX CHRISTI +JMJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJS Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 whoa. talk about wipe out. ^_^ welcome RJS to phatmass!! :D glad your here!! ^_^ Thank you Looks like a great site! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 THere are a lot of fake christian sites out there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Just Posted December 23, 2003 Author Share Posted December 23, 2003 Bruce why would we question the magesteriums authority when it comes directly from God? Un-like protestants we trust in Jesus's words "I am with you always" and "The gates of hell shall not prevail" I'll be praying for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce S Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 Bruce why would we question the magesteriums authority when it comes directly from God? OK, if you say so. Of course God must have made some HUGE whoppers then, right? Reference Popes UNDER 17 years old, just to mention a little thing that I personally find VERY unlike God to have wanted....my thoughts on that extend beyond that, but hey, I'm just the "Happy Heritic" here, whaddaIknow? Un-like protestants we trust in Jesus's words "I am with you always" and "The gates of hell shall not prevail" FWIW, we think he spoke those words to us too, sorry. The gates of hell are Satan, not other Christians, heretical or not, or for that matter, GREEK Orthodox, who don't believe things that the Catholic Church does, and THEY were there first, so if ANYONE has a claim to AUTHORITY, it is them, not the Catholic Church or the Protestants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce S Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 (edited) http://www.sancta.org/art/tosmann.jpg According to Dr. Tonsmann, from left to right we can see "the Indian", "bishop Zumarraga", the "translator", "Juan Diego showing the tilma" and below "the family". OK, you see those guys there, I certianly don't. Sorry. Here is the OTHER image that is touted. http://www.sancta.org/art/eye_fam.jpg Gimmie a break here. I took a beginner course in photography [actually, almost became a professional] and if THOSE images are proof, I'm ready to buy some swampland in Florida. I have seen more conclusive proof on Tortillas [cheap shot, but hey, I *am* the Heritic remember... Now deal with the questions posed by CATHOLIC investigators.... Edited December 23, 2003 by Bruce S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin D Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 :rolling: This is what a normal Catholic's post looks like after the admin is done with it at the Christian (trying not to laugh) forum. And you wonder why there are no Catholics there? Heh heh heh... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foundsheep Posted December 24, 2003 Share Posted December 24, 2003 http://www.sancta.org/art/tosmann.jpg According to Dr. Tonsmann, from left to right we can see "the Indian", "bishop Zumarraga", the "translator", "Juan Diego showing the tilma" and below "the family". OK, you see those guys there, I certianly don't. Sorry. Here is the OTHER image that is touted. http://www.sancta.org/art/eye_fam.jpg Gimmie a break here. I took a beginner course in photography [actually, almost became a professional] and if THOSE images are proof, I'm ready to buy some swampland in Florida. I have seen more conclusive proof on Tortillas [cheap shot, but hey, I *am* the Heritic remember... Now deal with the questions posed by CATHOLIC investigators.... Unless you can go see it for yourself you should not down it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce S Posted December 24, 2003 Share Posted December 24, 2003 Pull out your CCC and check these references, and let me have a Catholic explain these two for me. These ones baffle... #795 - Catechism of Catholic Church, 1994 #460 - Catechism of Catholic Church, 1994 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleflower+JMJ Posted December 24, 2003 Share Posted December 24, 2003 itsn't it wonderful how amazing Our Blessed MOther is!! to appear, to have a whole country turn to Her! to perform countless miracles, to convert millions!! to have the tilma still intact!! to have blessings bestowed upon us through Her intercession! God is amesome like that!! and its miracles like this that show God's great love for us!! to see with our eyes of faith, the true beauty of our LORD!! :D :D *off to confession now...God bless and pax christi!! merry CHRISTmas!! ^_^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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