Jaime Posted April 8, 2006 Share Posted April 8, 2006 [quote name='MC Just' date='Apr 7 2006, 10:28 PM']but i like blunt bashing! Pretty please? lol I agree with Ironmonk. I dont like the liberal way of thinking, I never will. [right][snapback]939679[/snapback][/right] [/quote] and there lies the problem Ironmonk states that anyone who thinks that it is immoral to say its a felony to feed the poor is a liberal. That is not a liberal view. It is a Catholic view Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelofJesus Posted April 8, 2006 Share Posted April 8, 2006 [quote name='MC Just' date='Apr 7 2006, 06:28 PM']but i like blunt bashing! Pretty please? lol I agree with Ironmonk. I dont like the liberal way of thinking, I never will. [right][snapback]939679[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Neither do we. It's just that when Jesus says "follow the beatitudes" we take it seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Just Posted April 8, 2006 Share Posted April 8, 2006 [quote name='hot stuff' date='Apr 7 2006, 08:48 PM']and there lies the problem Ironmonk states that anyone who thinks that it is immoral to say its a felony to feed the poor is a liberal. That is not a liberal view. It is a Catholic view [right][snapback]939695[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Come on hot stuff! He's not saying that! I think he has clarified that a few times along with socrates. He's simply saying that breaking the law is sinful. Feeding the poor is not breaking the law and committing sin, but aiding illegals in the wrong direction is. Feed them, of course, but help them get back into their own country and help to make it better or help them become citizens legally. Things would be so much better for them. Being here illegaly, they cant even pay taxes!! is that fair for the rest of us? there are a variety of reasons why it is wrong and sinful, but the liberal minded go straight to the democratic parties agenda's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Just Posted April 8, 2006 Share Posted April 8, 2006 [quote name='AngelofJesus' date='Apr 8 2006, 12:14 AM']Neither do we. It's just that when Jesus says "follow the beatitudes" we take it seriously. [right][snapback]939829[/snapback][/right] [/quote] So do we, but dont confuse the democratic and liberal views for the beatitudes. There's a big difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avemaria40 Posted April 8, 2006 Share Posted April 8, 2006 as for liberalism is a sin, I think that it would have to depend on what parts of liberalism we are talking about. If we are talking about socialism, abortion, physician assisted suicide, euthanasia, homosexual "marriage", human cloning, embryonic stem cell research, legalized prostitution, etc. yes, that's all sinful but if we are talking about being anti death penalty, having liberal views about the economy, etc. that's not sinful. I want to help immigrants and I understand it is sinful to let them break the law but I would want to help them get amnesty and be able to stay legally in this country with their families. It's not always possible to get here legally, especially if immigrants are escaping persecution and are forbidden to leave their country. Remember, it's not about being a liberal or a conservative, it's about being a Catholic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted April 8, 2006 Share Posted April 8, 2006 [quote name='MC Just' date='Apr 8 2006, 03:37 AM']Feeding the poor is not breaking the law and committing sin [right][snapback]939842[/snapback][/right] [/quote] The point is that the proposal currently before Congress would make feeding the poor illegal. Ironmonk unquestioningly supports the Republican proposal. The rest of us have problems with it. [quote name='MC Just' date='Apr 8 2006, 03:37 AM']Being here illegaly, they cant even pay taxes!! is that fair for the rest of us? [right][snapback]939842[/snapback][/right] [/quote] This is simply a factually inaccurate statements. Believe what you will about how living in crushing poverty is better for them, but please don't propogate falsehoods about undocumented immigrants being unable to pay taxes. There are certainly some immigrants who do not pay taxes. However, the IRS does not care about your immigration status. If you're willing to pay taxes, they're willing to take it. If you can't get a Social Security Number, you can get an Individual Taxpayer Identifiaction Number which you can use to file taxes, get home loans, get loans to start businesses, and so on. And immigrants use ITINs for all these things. And, it's not that hard to get fake SSNs. In fact, this has been an increasing problem with the Social Security Administration. They currently have more than $420 [b]billion[/b] in funds that they can't properly match to SSNs ... most of that money is from undocumented immigrants [b]who have been working and paying taxes under fake SSNs[/b]. Yes, getting a fake SSN is breaking the law. But, this (to me at least) demonstrates a willingness to pay taxes. Let's not paint all immigrants with the broad "freeloader" brush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thumper Posted April 8, 2006 Share Posted April 8, 2006 [quote name='ironmonk' date='Apr 6 2006, 07:37 AM']The bad apple doesn't spoil the bunch, you just pick it out and toss it. [right][snapback]937495[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Better make sure the guy tossing it out isn't an illegal immigrant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted April 8, 2006 Share Posted April 8, 2006 (edited) [quote name='Sojourner' date='Apr 8 2006, 04:56 AM']The point is that the proposal currently before Congress would make feeding the poor illegal. Ironmonk unquestioningly supports the Republican proposal. The rest of us have problems with it. [right][snapback]939857[/snapback][/right] [/quote]See. This is what really frustrates me. This isn't exactly the truth, no matter how you want to argue it. The truth is, the proposal currently before Congress MAY (not [u]will[/u]) make feeding the ILLEGALS illegal in [i]some[/i] circumstances. Enough rebuttal was provided to raise doubt, and lawyers would have to fight it out IF charges were filed. Meanwhile, there are more important principles for addressing the problem of illegal and undocumented and unprotected workers. Great strides are being made and it's s-t-u-p-i-d to get stuck on the minor points. We've got enough stereotypeing going on. Ironmond does NOT unquestionaingly support the Republicans. Sometimes I do think he doesn't ask enough questions when rejecting Democr***'s : proposals. But Max doesn't claim infallibility, he does make a claim of perponderance of being right. But truthfully, ALL of us really do that. The Catechism teaches respect for laws, the right of Nations to regulate immigrants, the responsibility of immigrants to consider themselves as guests AS WELL AS the responsibility to feed the poor, etc. Even a monkey was given enough ability to logicaly figure how to get a bannana out of a box. We certainly have enough intellect to consider all the factors and come up with a balanced understanding. (Or so I assume.) Edited April 8, 2006 by jasJis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted April 8, 2006 Share Posted April 8, 2006 [quote name='MC Just' date='Apr 8 2006, 03:37 AM']Come on hot stuff! He's not saying that! I think he has clarified that a few times along with socrates. He's simply saying that breaking the law is sinful. Feeding the poor is not breaking the law and committing sin, but aiding illegals in the wrong direction is. Feed them, of course, but help them get back into their own country and help to make it better or help them become citizens legally. Things would be so much better for them. Being here illegaly, they cant even pay taxes!! is that fair for the rest of us? there are a variety of reasons why it is wrong and sinful, but the liberal minded go straight to the democratic parties agenda's. [right][snapback]939842[/snapback][/right] [/quote] His (and Socrates and JasJis) "clarification" is the wrong interpretation of the law. If it becomes a law (and it probably won't) feeding illegals can be a felonious act. [quote]2245 The Church, because of her commission and competence, is [b]not to be confused in any way with the political community[/b]. She is both the sign and the safeguard of the transcendent character of the human person. "The Church respects and encourages the political freedom and responsibility of the citizen."52[/quote] How do they justify ignoring this part of the Catechism? They can't so they simply ignore it. Ignoring the full teachings of the Church is what is liberal. Ignoring the full teachings of the Church is cafeteria Catholicism. It is what you and others rightfully charged John Kerry with and it is exactly what Ironmonk and others are doing. How would Catholic homeless shelters verify citizenship of transients in light of the CCC and in reality? How many homeless are carrying ID? Is it just a liberal minded cardinal that's speaking on this ? No many bishops are speaking up [quote]Bishops from Georgia, Arizona, New York, California, Pennsylvania and Colorado are among those who have issued pastoral letters or public statements in recent months about immigration and what they would like legislation to address.[/quote] [quote]In July 2005, Bishop Gerald R. Barnes of San Bernardino, Calif., chairman of the bishops' Committee on Migration, announced the committee's support for a version of immigration reform legislation sponsored by Sens. John McCain, R-Ariz., and Edward M. Kennedy, D-Mass., known as the Secure America and Orderly Immigration Act.[/quote] [quote]Bishop Barnes on behalf of the migration committee in December criticized H.R. 4437, legislation passed by the House and sponsored by Rep. James Sensenbrenner, R-Wis. Among his objections were: * It would expand the process known as expedited removal, further curtailing the already limited rights people have in seeking to avoid deportation. * It would require that anyone caught attempting to enter the United States illegally be put in detention. Currently, thousands of illegal immigrants are simply returned across the Mexican border or are released on their own recognizance pending further legal action. * It would change the act of being in the country illegally from a violation of civil law to a criminal violation, which would have long-term implications for future efforts for people to become legal residents. * [b]It would criminalize the act of aiding people who are in the country illegally, including offering humanitarian assistance such as that provided by many church-sponsored organizations.[/b] * It would prohibit refugees and asylum seekers from obtaining legal permanent residence and citizenship if they commit relatively minor crimes.[/quote] Are the bishops encouraging illegal activity? No [quote] The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops also has endorsed an interfaith statement calling for a comprehensive approach to immigration law. Among the key principles endorsed by the bishops are: * [b]That any legislation provide a way for people who are already in the country illegally to "come out of the shadows, regularize their status upon satisfaction of reasonable criteria and, over time, pursue an option to become lawful permanent residents and eventually" U.S. citizens.[/b] * That the system of immigration for family reunification be revamped to significantly reduce waiting times, which now run many years for some categories of relatives of legal U.S. residents. The backlog is considered to be a factor in why some people try to enter the country illegally and in the breakup of families. * That any system for "guest workers" to fill jobs in the United States includes legal avenues for workers and their families who wish to remain in the country to do so. * That border enforcement policies respect individuals and protect human rights, while allowing the government to identify terrorists and dangerous criminals and prevent their entry.[/quote] . Ironmonk Socrates and Jasjis say this is a liberal viewpoint and it goes against Church teachings. THIS IS INCORRECT. It is about justice and it is about the teachings of the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lounge Daddy Posted April 8, 2006 Share Posted April 8, 2006 [img]http://fcbcapparel.com/images/liberal_Ihatecommies.gif[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lounge Daddy Posted April 8, 2006 Share Posted April 8, 2006 [img]http://myspace-252.vo.llnwd.net/00637/25/21/637941252_m.gif[/img] this is a great desktop paper that reads: [quote]progressives (read: liberals) do it with force. is economic "justice" at the barrel of a government gun still justice?[/quote] view it [url="http://bureaucrash.com/node/1717"]HERE[/url] i very much agree with the point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted April 8, 2006 Share Posted April 8, 2006 [quote]See. This is what really frustrates me. This isn't exactly the truth, no matter how you want to argue it. The truth is, the proposal currently before Congress MAY (not will) make feeding the ILLEGALS illegal in some circumstances. [/quote] And that is a door that should not be opened. It should not be a possibility. that has been my point the entire time. The senate bill has a good samaritan clause and NO ONE has a problem with their version of the bill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mariahLVzJP2 Posted April 8, 2006 Share Posted April 8, 2006 "I was a stranger and you welcomed me' (Matthew 25:35) Today the illegal migrant comes before us like that 'stranger' in whom Jesus asks to be recognized. To welcome him and show him solidarity is a duty of hospitality and fidelity to Christian identity itself." -Pope John Paul II, annual message for World Migration Day, 1996 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted April 8, 2006 Share Posted April 8, 2006 Nice quote Mariah!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mariahLVzJP2 Posted April 8, 2006 Share Posted April 8, 2006 (edited) [quote name='hot stuff' date='Apr 8 2006, 11:37 AM']Nice quote Mariah!! [right][snapback]940114[/snapback][/right] [/quote] thanks hot stuff! Edited April 8, 2006 by mariahLVzJP2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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