The problems with the way liberals think...

[Azriel]

Alright pholks ... let's bring this back to the issues, and stop calling out each other's Catholic-ness.

On all sides its becoming personal, and the thread shall die an slow miserable death if it doesn't stop.

Oh, and for the record, I think the bill is poorly written in vague terms and I really don't understand what it means - so basically, I really don't have an opinion on it either way yet - before someone accuses me of bias.

Of course, I live in a border state - but it happens to be Canada, and people aren't getting up in arms about Canadian illegals. :

[jasJis]

I hear you, Az. I live in Florida, and see the real problem of undocumented illegal working people being exploited every day. I don't see them starving, I see them earning just enough to stay fed. [b] If[/b] the workers at the food bank a mile from my office get arrested for feeding them, I'd doubt I'd hear them whineing about it because they know the plight of the illegal worker is much worse and is worth the sacrifice.

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Apr 6 2006, 08:37 AM']Come on bro... you know that bad examples of Catholics and ignorant Catholics do not taint the good Catholics.

That's like saying "I'm glad I'm not an American because of criminals"... "I'm glad I'm not a cop because some are crooked".

The bad apple doesn't spoil the bunch, you just pick it out and toss it.
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Perhaps you could have not shared this sentiment.

Your reputation suffers.

[Cow of Shame]

[quote name='Azriel' date='Apr 6 2006, 09:30 AM']Of course, I live in a border state - but it happens to be Canada, and people aren't getting up in arms about Canadian illegals.
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What? Do they do the jobs even the Mexicans won't take? [i]Assistant[/i] crack whore?

[AngelofJesus]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Apr 6 2006, 04:37 AM']Come on bro... you know that bad examples of Catholics and ignorant Catholics do not taint the good Catholics.

That's like saying "I'm glad I'm not an American because of criminals"... "I'm glad I'm not a cop because some are crooked".

The bad apple doesn't spoil the bunch, you just pick it out and toss it.
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Thats a very paradoxical statement.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Apr 6 2006, 10:44 PM']Perhaps you could have not shared this sentiment.

Your reputation suffers.
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I don't see how it could, it's just pointing out that if someone is a bad example of a Catholic is not a just reason to stay non-Catholic. It's not the orgainizations fault if a person in it cannot follow the Faith correctly due to ignorance, lack of logic, or sin... it is our responsibility to study and know the faith - the Church doesn't force it down our throat.

If someone is a bad example of a Catholic and is trying to push a non-Catholic view, then their views should be tossed and ignored, unless someone thinks that if they take the time and put forth the effort to educate them, it will help.... A non-Catholic view from someone who claims to be Catholic does not spoil the Catholic Church.


Besides... I'm not really worried about what people think of me... I don't debate for reputation, I debate for what is right and true. God knows what I mean when I write... God knows what I know about the Church and how I am completely loyal to the Magisterium in all parts of the faith, not just what I want... My opinions conform to the Faith, I do not try to conform the faith to my opinions.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='AngelofJesus' date='Apr 7 2006, 01:22 AM']Thats a very paradoxical statement.
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No it's not.

There is an old cliche "The bad apple spoils the bunch"... which is an untrue statement. Apples typically are sold by the "bunch". If a bad apple is found when a bunch of apples are getting inspected it gets tossed out of the bunch.

[Jaime]

[quote]My opinions conform to the Faith, I do not try to conform the faith to my opinions.
[/quote]

Really...

And yet you ignore significant parts of the Catechism because they conflict with your opinion. You contradict your own statements and you contradict the teachings of the Church.

[quote]2244 Every institution is inspired, at least implicitly, by a vision of man and his destiny, from which it derives the point of reference for its judgment, its hierarchy of values, its line of conduct. Most societies have formed their institutions in the recognition of a certain preeminence of man over things. Only the divinely revealed religion has clearly recognized man's origin and destiny in God, the Creator and Redeemer. The Church invites political authorities to measure their judgments and decisions against this inspired truth about God and man:

    Societies not recognizing this vision or rejecting it in the name of their independence from God are brought to seek their criteria and goal in themselves or to borrow them from some ideology. Since they do not admit that one can defend an objective criterion of good and evil, they arrogate to themselves an explicit or implicit totalitarian power over man and his destiny, as history shows.51

2245 The Church, because of her commission and competence, is not to be confused in any way with the political community. She is both the sign and the safeguard of the transcendent character of the human person. "The Church respects and encourages the political freedom and responsibility of the citizen."52

2246 It is a part of the Church's mission "to pass moral judgments even in matters related to politics, whenever the fundamental rights of man or the salvation of souls requires it. The means, the only means, she may use are those which are in accord with the Gospel and the welfare of all men according to the diversity of times and circumstances."53[/quote]


You've been proven wrong Ironmonk. And yet you keep on arguing for the sake of pride.

[Socrates]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Apr 7 2006, 06:21 PM']Really...

And yet you ignore significant parts of the Catechism because they conflict with your opinion.  You contradict your own statements and you contradict the teachings of the Church.
You've been proven wrong Ironmonk.  And yet you keep on arguing for the sake of pride.
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Exactly which part of the Catechism there does Ironmonk supposedly contradict?

I'm afraid you've lost me there, dude.

[Jaime]

Ironmonk quotes the first few lines of the Catechism dealing with govt and society. In those it requires us to obey the laws of the state. However he stops just short of the part of the Catechism that defines when we are required to not follow the laws of the state and that the Church should not be confused with the state . Concluding to this point

[i]46 It is a part of the Church's mission "to pass moral judgments even in matters related to politics, whenever [b]the fundamental rights of man[/b] or the salvation of souls requires it. The means, the only means, she may use are those which are in accord with the Gospel and the welfare of all men according to the diversity of times and circumstances.[/i]


As Ironmonk has stated

[quote]If someone wants to try to pull the "unjust law" string then they have to ignore CCC 2241. If they ignore CCC 2241 then it proves that their conscience is not an upright one.... note: upright, not upleft.
[/quote]

His point ignores the rest of the Church's teaching in the very same section. Its insincere and its misleading. Its a lie.






He wanted to be corrected with Church teachings. And he has.

Edited April 8, 2006 by jaime

[MC Just]

haha here's something:
























Liberalism is a sin. Every last bit of it. Liberalism="come on in Satan"

[MC Just]

and actually IM, i dont think liberals think at all. lol

[Paphnutius]

MC Just if you are not going to contribute to the discussion with actual points rather than blunt bashing please refrain.

[MC Just]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Apr 7 2006, 08:15 PM']MC Just if you are not going to contribute to the discussion with actual points rather than blunt bashing please refrain.
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but i like blunt bashing! Pretty please? lol

I agree with Ironmonk. I dont like the liberal way of thinking, I never will.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='MC Just' date='Apr 7 2006, 08:28 PM']but i like blunt bashing! Pretty please? lol
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Very well...if you insist. But seriously...