The problems with the way liberals think...

[Jaime]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Apr 5 2006, 11:25 PM']The theology is not flawed. The error lies in your interpretation.

Her point was saying that Jesus' flesh is what made Him great... The point I was making is that His Spirit is why His flesh was great.

Also, thank you.

[b][url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/ecclesiastes/ecclesiastes10.htm"]Ecclesiastes 10:2[/url] [/b]
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[quote]His having flesh is PRECISELY what makes him incarnate.[/quote]

umm nope. she's very clear. Again you are misinterpreting.

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Apr 5 2006, 11:28 PM']Helping illegals stay in the country now is a sin. It is a sin because it is breaking the law. Everyone who helps an illegal stay in the country is sinning.

If they need a place to stay, there are options WITHOUT sinning... They can stay at the immigration office until they are sent home.

You and they might not like that option, but the bottom line is if we think a venial sin is ok, then we lack the love for God that we should have.

Explain to me why it is ok to do venial sins and how we are showing our love for Christ because we disagree with the Church's teaching.
Also... My liking this bill has nothing to do with the party. I have posted plenty of logical and Catholic reasons to support it.

The current laws are not working because too many people lack the love that they should have for God and fail to avoid venial sins. How else is the USA suppose to be able to regulate it's immigration... it has to try other means.
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Yes, all illegal immigrants who come across each week can stay at the immigration office. perfect solution. Then we'll spend our money on food and gasoline to take them home, rather than have them buy stuff here with the cash they get from the menial jobs that degreed Americans won't do.
Christ said that what we do the least, we do to Him. If we are so mindful of the civil law that we forget the higher law of caring for these people then we're not treating Him very well. If we're so concerned about the state of the Mexican's soul that we let him starve or sleep on the streets, there's something wrong with that.
Added to that, how will the government verify that churches aren't helping illegals? Self-reporting. Government forms. Nuh-uh, not in my Church.

Please, are there any real conservatives on the board? I'm lonesome.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Apr 5 2006, 11:53 PM']Yes, all illegal immigrants who come across each week can stay at the immigration office.  perfect solution.  Then we'll spend our money on food and gasoline to take them home, rather than have them buy stuff here with the cash they get from the menial jobs that degreed Americans won't do. 
Christ said that what we do the least, we do to Him.  If we are so mindful of the civil law that we forget the higher law of caring for these people then we're not treating Him very well.  If we're so concerned about the state of the Mexican's soul that we let him starve or sleep on the streets, there's something wrong with that.
Added to that, how will the government verify that churches aren't helping illegals?  Self-reporting.  Government forms.  Nuh-uh, not in my Church. 

Please, are there any real conservatives on the board?  I'm lonesome.
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The higher law is not to sin.

There is an option where we would not sin in helping them, but you don't like it.

Any sin is unacceptable.

The Catholic Church teaches that:
1) Nations have a right to regulate their immigration.
2) Breaking the law is a sin


In fact, by helping illegal aliens stay in this country, then you become an occasion of sin because they are sinning by illegally entering

You cannot justify helping illegals stay in this country unless their lives are endangered.

The Church teaching is clear.

You can give them food and water... and help them get back to their country of origin... which will leave you free from sin.

OR

You can give them food and water, help them stay in America illegally... and sin.

[AngelofJesus]

What if you just give them food and water and not bother to check their status?

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Apr 6 2006, 12:19 AM']The higher law is not to sin.

There is an option where we would not sin in helping them, but you don't like it.

Any sin is unacceptable.

The Catholic Church teaches that:
1) Nations have a right to regulate their immigration.
2) Breaking the law is a sin
In fact, by helping illegal aliens stay in this country, then you become an occasion of sin because they are sinning by illegally entering

You cannot justify helping illegals stay in this country unless their lives are endangered.

The Church teaching is clear.

You can give them food and water... and help them get back to their country of origin... which will leave you free from sin.

OR

You can give them food and water, help them stay in America illegally... and sin.
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could you stop telling me what I like, please? I don't like the idea of illegal immigrants. I [i]like[/i] ideal situations where everything fits neatly into a row and I don't have to make hard decisions. I don't like having to decide between sending people back to crushing poverty (which might itself be a sin) and obeying the laws of my country.
I'd count it a lesser evil to help those people earn enough to buy food and sleep under a roof. I wouldn't really want to send them back to barrio slums where they'll be raped or robbed or hungry or cold or whatever. If it's a problem, at least it's not a mortal sin...I'll take the purgatory time.
Regulating immigration is one thing, effectively preventing churches from providing aid and shelter to people is another. That's the problem with the bill.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='AngelofJesus' date='Apr 6 2006, 12:27 AM']What if you just give them food and water and not bother to check their status?
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Then you don't know if they are illegal, and there is no crime... therefore no sin... in most cases... I'm sure there would be some situation where someone would know without asking...

At most places of aid that I know of, they simply ask for a social security number and name... they have to keep records of who they feed and help. They don't check id's. It is to give a count to how many people they help on a monthly basis. Which helps is getting more money to help the poor.

I don't mean to say that "you" don't like it, it was just in general.

I would like to see illegal immigration stopped and it become easier for good immigrants to enter the country legally.

I have not ever read anything that can justify a venial sin is my issue... Venial sin is a fox in a hen house...

[b]The Forge:[/b]
[b]1029 [/b]With your whole heart, ask for death, and a thousand deaths, rather than offend your God.

[b]And not because of the punishment due to sin, which we deserve so much, but because Jesus has been and is so good to you[/b].


[b]The Way: [/b]
[b]329 [/b]Venial sins do great harm to the soul. — Therefore God says in the Song of Songs: 'Catch the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards'.


[b]331 [/b]You are lukewarm if you carry out lazily and reluctantly those things that have to do with our Lord; if deliberately or 'shrewdly' you look for some way of cutting down your duties; if you think only of yourself and of your comfort; if your conversations are idle and vain; [b]if you do not abhor venial sin[/b]; if you act from human motives.

[b]114 [/b]Ask the Lord to grant you all the sensitivity you need [b]to realise how evil venial sin i[/b]s, so as to recognise it as an outright and fundamental enemy of your soul, and, with God's grace, to avoid it.

[b]328 [/b]How little Love of God you have when you yield without a fight because it is not a grave sin!

[Sojourner]

So IM, just out of curiosity (and on the off chance that you're not ignoring me ) I have a question regarding the sinfulness of helping illegal immigrants.

Let's say, for example, that a woman comes to the U.S. legally, in part to escape an abusive relationship. While here, she meets and falls in love with a man here, and marries him. Before she married him, she was totally a legal resident, and was pursuing permanent residency. After she marries him, things go great for a while, then he becomes abusive. Part of the abuse is that he prevents her from continuing to seek legal status. She eventually leaves him. At this point, she's an illegal immigrant. Would I sin in providing her with shelter? Would I sin if I helped her to pursue legal status? Would that sin stop as soon as she's reached legal status?

Or here's another one. Say a young Colombian girl's mother dies. The girl comes to live with her aunt and uncle, who live in the states. She goes to junior high and high school in the states, growing up essentially as a U.S. citizen, just as her cousins are. However, her aunt and uncle never move from legal guardianship to adoption, and by the time they realize they should have done that, it's too late for our young friend -- she's an illegal immigrant. If her aunt and uncle continue to provide her food and shelter, are they sinning? Should they ship her back to Colombia, where she has no near relatives, as soon as possible? What about the lawyers who help her get into college ... are they sinning? And if they push to allow her to stay stateside legally, is it a sin? They are, after all, assisting her to continue residing in the U.S. -- aiding and abetting a known illegal immigrant.

Or let's talk about the kid who's come to the U.S. because a gang took over his neighborhood. He refused to join, and his life was in danger, so his parents scraped together enough to get him passage to the U.S. Here, he's got a job working at a construction site, making money to send back to his parents and to live on himself. He met a nice girl and married her, and now they have a baby. He isn't, however, legal. Is it a sin for me to give him a ride to his job? How about for me to watch his baby while he and his wife go to work? Is it a sin for me to help him gain legal status? Should I save up so I can help him get back where he belongs so he can join up with that gang?

[jasJis]

Thump,
You make me glad I'm not Catholic. I would not want to ascribe to you thought 'process'.

Again. In practicality, a number of States, including Florida, have had similar laws about aiding and abetting illegals to remain illegal. In practical reality, I know of many feeding organizations hat have fed illegals without a serious problem. Kinda, don't ask, don't tell. My dad did it for years. Prosecution under the law often has to show willful intent to violate. Let lawyers argue that out.

Besides, this concerns only 1 of the multiple principles that seemed to be agreed upon another thread. Overly emotional and irrational thinking elevates this one principle as being above the others and sacrificing gain for the other principles on this one item. That's like the doctor saying, "We got great news! We saved his foot from being amputated, but we damaged the nerves during the operation and he won't be able to use it."

Soj,
Unfortunately Laws work in gerneralities and the exceptions are not always treated justly. Welcome to Legislature 101. There's 11 million people working in the US. The US economy needs them. The US economy can accomodate more. The US culture can welcome them just as it has welcomed millions of other immigrants. Wasting time on the the vague definition of what 'aid' is allowable while the primary effort should be how to incorporate 11 million people into legal status of the US, is in my un-educated, admittidly non-Catholic opinion, is just plain wrong and counter-productive and only serves as a 'us vs. them' political weapon. But hey, what do I know?

[Jaime]

[quote]You make me glad I'm not Catholic. I would not want to ascribe to you thought 'process'.[/quote]

You've demonstrated that Jas. The thought process is called critical thinking.


[quote]Then you don't know if they are illegal, and there is no crime... therefore no sin... in most cases... I'm sure there would be some situation where someone would know without asking...



[/quote]

[quote]Again. In practicality, a number of States, including Florida, have had similar laws about aiding and abetting illegals to remain illegal. In practical reality, I know of many feeding organizations hat have fed illegals without a serious problem. [/quote]



And finally the stubborn have come to the crux of the issue. This is what's different about this bill. It would be illegal to do that. If you don't check IDs you can be guilty of showing reckless disregard of their immigration status. ([i]ref:knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such person is an alien[/i])

And how does an organization do that?

THE OBTUSE CONSERVATIVE'S SOUP KITCHEN

"Hi welcome to our soup kitchen. Just show me some ID and this soup is yours!"

"Umm I'm homeless. I don't have a state issued id"

" Really you should look into getting that. Just show me your social security number"

"I don't have a Social security card. "

"Really? They're kind of necessary in our society. I just keep mine in my wallet"

"I ate my wallet"

"Well here's some soup but I'm going to have to call INS. "

"What are you talking about? I'm a US citizen?"

"Sorry but if you can't provide a social security card, I have no choice Mr Johnson"

The homeless do not generally carry ID kids.

And for the continuous rant that I am reading too much into the proposed bill, here is what the director of Catholic Charities said about the Senate version

[quote]“We are pleased with the progress the Senate Judiciary Committee has made proposing enacting immigration reform that not only promotes the security of our nation, but also puts undocumented workers and their families on the path to lawful permanent residence and citizenship,” said Father Larry Snyder, president of Catholic Charities USA, which strongly opposes a House-passed enforcement only proposal. “We look forward to working with senators as the measure is debated in the Senate over the coming weeks to ensure that an overhaul of our nation’s immigration system is fair and just and protects the dignity of immigrants.”

[b]In addition to providing a pathway to legal citizenship and worker protections, the committee’s draft legislation includes a “Good Samaritan” provision that will protect groups like Catholic Charities that may provide humanitarian assistance to illegal immigrants. “Catholic Charities USA is grateful that the senators recognize that those providing humanitarian assistance should not be subject to criminal penalties for fulfilling their mission of helping those in need,” said Father Snyder.[/b] [/quote]

[Thumper]

[quote name='jasJis' date='Apr 6 2006, 05:47 AM']Thump,
You make me glad I'm not Catholic.  I would not want to ascribe to you thought 'process'.
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Jas, you make me glad I'm a Christian.

[quote name='jasJis' date='Apr 6 2006, 05:47 AM']
Again.  In practicality, a number of States, including Florida, have had similar laws about aiding and abetting illegals to remain illegal.  In practical reality, I know of many feeding organizations hat have fed illegals without a serious problem.  Kinda, don't ask, don't tell.  My dad did it for years.  Prosecution under the law often has to show willful intent to violate.  Let lawyers argue that out.
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Why should there be ANY potentiality for a problem? I haven't read enough of your posts to know this, but I assume that you think that occasionally Christians in America are unjustly persecued for trying to carry out their beliefs. What if some random person with a hate-on for a Christian denomination (and some power and ambition, like a D.A.) decides to report soup kitchen employees because they could have reasonably known that John was really Juan, an illegal immigrant. Even if willful intent is hard to prove, a non-profit is unlikely to have the resources to "let the lawyers argue that out."

Why shouldn't I push my legislators to make the bill as clear as possible and to reflect as completely as possible my moral stance as a Catholic which I believe can contribute to the common good? That's what I want them to do with abortion legislation--but that's out of bounds with other legislation?

[quote name='jasJis' date='Apr 6 2006, 05:47 AM']
Overly emotional and irrational thinking elevates this one principle as being above the others and sacrificing gain for the other principles on this one item.  [right][snapback]937446[/snapback][/right]
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That's right. Ironmonk elevated one principle (spiritual needs) above others and has sacrificed another principle (physical needs) in order to get there. I'm saying that from a Catholic perspective, one must always hold the spiritual and physical together. But then again, that's the thought process that is so offensive to you.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='jasJis' date='Apr 6 2006, 06:47 AM']Thump,
You make me glad I'm not Catholic.  [right][snapback]937446[/snapback][/right]
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Come on bro... you know that bad examples of Catholics and ignorant Catholics do not taint the good Catholics.

That's like saying "I'm glad I'm not an American because of criminals"... "I'm glad I'm not a cop because some are crooked".

The bad apple doesn't spoil the bunch, you just pick it out and toss it.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Apr 6 2006, 08:37 AM']Come on bro... you know that bad examples of Catholics and ignorant Catholics do not taint the good Catholics.

That's like saying "I'm glad I'm not an American because of criminals"... "I'm glad I'm not a cop because some are crooked".

The bad apple doesn't spoil the bunch, you just pick it out and toss it.
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IM, statements like this and your earlier intimation that Thumper does not love Jesus are entirely inappropriate and highly offensive. I may not agree with you, but I'm not questioning your devotion to the faith or your love for Christ. That is WAY out of line.

[Jaime]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Apr 6 2006, 08:37 AM']Come on bro... you know that bad examples of Catholics and ignorant Catholics do not taint the good Catholics.

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You mean like when someone claims to be a Catechism machine yet ignores critical parts of the Catechism?



This is such a typical argument for you Ironmonk. You don't like being proven wrong so you insult.

You've been corrected as to the Catechism

You've been corrected on the interpretation of the bill.

If you refuse to be corrected simply because you do not care for those who are trying to teach you the Truth, then you're placing pride before assenting your will to Church teachings.

[ironmonk]

This is hilarious...

Senate Republicans will filibuster their own immigration bill today in the face of steadfast [u][b]refusal by Democrats to allow amendments to the bill that many conservatives view as granting amnesty to illegal aliens[/b][/u].
[url="http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20060406-124606-5360r.htm"]http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20...24606-5360r.htm[/url]

Reps want to grant amnesty to illegals that are here so they can stay here while they work on becoming legal, yet dems won't allow that? Hmmmm.... speaks volumes for who is actually for the people.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Apr 6 2006, 08:59 AM']This is hilarious...

Senate Republicans will filibuster their own immigration bill today in the face of steadfast [u][b]refusal by Democrats to allow amendments to the bill that many conservatives view as granting amnesty to illegal aliens[/b][/u].
[url="http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20060406-124606-5360r.htm"]http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20...24606-5360r.htm[/url]

Reps want to grant amnesty to illegals that are here so they can stay here while they work on becoming legal, yet dems won't allow that? Hmmmm....  speaks volumes for who is actually for the people.
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Oh come on, Ironmonk. You know how the media lies and distorts the truth. I bet not one word in seven in that article is worth believing.


And you still owe Thumper an apology.