The problems with the way liberals think...

[Jaime]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Apr 5 2006, 10:33 PM']:cry:I love you man...
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[/quote]

You guys can have as many group hugs as you want. You can't change the facts simply by ignoring them

[Jaime]

Oh and keep on ignoring the rest of the Catechism that I quoted Ironmonk.


Its safer that way for you

[ironmonk]

[quote name='jaimie' date='Apr 5 2006, 10:16 PM']You have chosen to ignore hot stuff. View this post · Un-ignore hot stuff [/quote]





Too bad it doesn't work on the post page... but for your education...

"reside in or remain"... what does reside in or remain have to do with food or water?!


"come to or enter the United States"... What does come to or enter the United States have to do with food or water?!


" from detection"... what does from detection have to do with food or water?!


No where does it even imply food and water. You come out of left field with things that are just not there. You ignore everything else in the section and focus on one word "assists"... Assists to do what? "reside in or remain" - Reside and remaining has nothing to do with food and water... it has to do with giving them a job or a place to live knowing that they are illegal.

And you know what... you still are not going to get it...And this is why I ignore you... we spell it out and for some reason you still can't see it. Why would that be? (I don't want to know an answer, but it is something you should meditate and pray on)


God Bless,
ironmonk

[Jaime]

sigh...

[quote]assists, encourages, directs, or induces a person to reside in or remain in the United States[/quote]

any other questions?

Its so helpful to read all the way through

You know like with the Catechism?

[quote]And you know what... you still are not going to get it...And this is why I ignore you... we spell it out and for some reason you still can't see it. Why would that be? (I don't want to know an answer, but it is something you should meditate and pray on)[/quote]

Or

You are so prideful that you cannot admit when you're wrong when its this obvious, its easier just to pretend it doesn't exist. Its something you should meditate and pray on.

Edited April 6, 2006 by jaime

[ironmonk]

assists a person [b]to[/b] [u][b]reside in [/b][/u][b]or [/b][u][b]remain in [/b][/u]the United States

encourages a person [b]to[/b] [u][b]reside in [/b][/u][b]or [/b][u][b]remain in [/b][/u]the United States


directs a person [b]to[/b] [u][b]reside in [/b][/u][b]or [/b][u][b]remain in [/b][/u]the United States


induces a person to [b]to[/b] [u][b]reside in [/b][/u][b]or [/b][u][b]remain in [/b][/u]the United States



[u][b]re·side:[/b][/u] To live in a place permanently or for an extended period.

[u][b]re·main:[/b][/u] To continue to be in the same place; stay or stay behind


God Bless you Jamie.
ironmonk

[Socrates]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Apr 5 2006, 08:47 PM']sigh...
[quote]assists, encourages, directs, or induces a person to reside in or remain in the United States[/quote]
any other questions?

Its so helpful to read all the way through

You know like with the Catechism?
Or

You are so prideful that you cannot admit when you're wrong when its this obvious, its easier just to pretend it doesn't exist
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[/quote]
Yeah, we could read it the first time.

The law says you can't assist, encourage, direct, or induce a person to reside in or remain in the United States. In other words, you can't help them in their illegal immigration. Nothing there about giving them food or drink.

Just as if a law said one may not assist, encourage, direct, or induce a person to rob a bank, this would have no bearing on giving a guy a burger and a cold drink.


Or

You are so prideful that you cannot admit when you're wrong when its this obvious?

[Jaime]

Wow as bright as you guys claim to be, you are the only ones who are (perhaps intentionally) misunderstanding the bill.

You honestly don't think that providing food aid or shelter i.e. Catholic homeless shelters, does not assist one to remain in the US?


Really....

Edited April 6, 2006 by jaime

[Thumper]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Apr 5 2006, 08:59 PM']I only see a lack of logic, knowledge of the faith, completely ignoring what has been posted, or a combination of the three.
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[/quote]

Now, now. Don’t be so hard on yourself.

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Apr 5 2006, 08:59 PM']Physical medium does not equal physical need. We are not talking about a Sacrament, what gives all physical medium any value is the Spirit, not the physical item.
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[/quote]

You weren’t talking explicitly about the sacraments—but your statement that liberals mistakenly place physical needs before spiritual needs is frankly offensive to the Catholic sacramental imagination. Of course the Holy Spirit has a particular role in the sacraments; and the Holy Spirit’s grace impacts us spiritually. The point is, that the sacraments are not only spiritual for Catholics (as they are for some Protestant denominations). Grace is mediated by the physical and the sensible because we are in fact both physical and sensible. That’s God being smart about how his grace comes to be interiorly in us. It doesn’t simply arise from within, but from without, mediated by the physical world through the sacraments.

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Apr 5 2006, 08:59 PM']
What made Him the Word INCARNATE IS His Spirit. NOT His Flesh. Seriously backward thinking with this pseudo point.
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[/quote]

Mary conceived Jesus Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. However, His having flesh is PRECISELY what makes him incarnate. You might want to do a quick check on dictionary.com for the definition of the word incarnate. For now, note that “incarnate” is from the “Middle English, from Late Latin incarntus, past participle of incarnre, to make flesh : Latin in-, causative pref.; see in-2 + Latin car, carn-, flesh.”

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Apr 5 2006, 08:59 PM']This is irrelevant to the argument.
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[/quote]

If you find my assertion that all physical needs will pass to be irrelevant, then I suggest that you refrain from saying:

[quote name='ironmonk']All physical needs will pass.
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[/quote]

But, moving forward . . . .

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Apr 5 2006, 08:59 PM']Spiritual needs will never pass. Even when we are in Heaven, our spiritual need will be to please God. Even the saints in Heaven pray to the Lord as seen in the Scriptures, prayer is a spiritual need... it does not stop when we go to Heaven.
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[/quote]

I disagree with you, and I think St. Thomas does, too, but I’m doing some research on that and will get back to you.

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Apr 5 2006, 08:59 PM']Here is where the lack of logic comes to blossom - and ignorance of what I have posted. First and foremost is not to sin. Physical needs before spiritual needs are wrong. All wrongdoing is a sin (1 John 5:17). St. Matt. 6 is quite clear that we are first to seek the kingdom - The Gospels, the Catechism, the Church Fathers, the Saints... all quite clear that spiritual needs far outweigh our physical needs... the saints would rather die, and many did, than sin even a single venial sin.

All sins are a step backward from seeking the kingdom. [u]I was very clear in that we [b]should[/b] feed those who are hungry[/u], so you have no point, your entire post is mute and asinine to say the least.
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[/quote]

I noticed that you indicated that the Church should feed the poor, IM, so kudos to you on that. I never said that you thought we shouldn’t feed the poor. What I was objecting to, once again, was not the immigration issue per se, but rather your implication that the spiritual is always more important than the physical. Hence, Matthew 25—it is clear that to offer the naked, hungry, thirsty, stranger in prison a bible or spiritual admonishment or even just to offer to pray for them does not fulfill all that Jesus commands. He commands BOTH the spiritual AND the physical needs to be met.

That is my entire beef with the implications of your argument. You are holding up the spiritual to the exclusion of the physical, and that is always very risky; just as it is always risky to hold up the physical to the exclusion of the spiritual. It’s dualism. And as Catholics, we don’t play that game.

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Apr 5 2006, 08:59 PM']Replying to you is a waste of time because it's like you don't even read the posts. And you actually think that you unravel points I post?! LOL Most of them are not my points, I'm just a parrot of the Church... you can't unravel what God has built.
Catholic dogma is the explanation of the Gospels.
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[/quote]

Well, I was pretty impressed that you actually replied to me because I don’t think you’ve ever done that before. Of course, it did raise my hopes that I was being put on the ignore list.

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Apr 5 2006, 08:59 PM']
You have the right to rationalize venial sin all you want... just so you know, it shows a severe lack of love for the Lord when we see no problem with venial sin.
God Bless,
ironmonk
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[/quote]

IM, why are you getting passive-aggressive on me all of a sudden? If you think I don’t love my Jesus, then just come out and say so. You’d be wrong, but that’s never stopped you before.

God bless you, too,
Thumper

[ironmonk]

thumper,
I'm not going to waste my time with you either.

God Bless.

[Thumper]

Yes!! I'm in the club.


What are we called again?


Oh, yeah, Catholics.

[Jaime]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Apr 5 2006, 11:06 PM']thumper,
I'm not going to waste my time with you either.

God Bless.
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[/quote]

You could at least thank her for correcting your flawed theology. (spirit is what made him incarnate )

Edited April 6, 2006 by jaime

[Paphnutius]

Notate Bene: Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.

[toledo_jesus]

so, if an illegal is in need of a place to stay then it is a felony to help them. If you give them a sandwich and a bottle of water and say, "make sure to sleep next to a vent" then that's fine.

Reside...remain...they mean stay. So if you help them stay in the country, via a shelter or even just out of your own kindness, then you are a felon. Perfect!

Look, I'm as arch-conservative as the next guy...but this is a serious blurring of the government's relationship to the Church. If we are constrained in any way from providing charity to these people...that's serious. That's to be fought.

I'm reminded of Christ talking to lepers and Samaritans. Touching them even. That broke the laws of His time. You really should err on the side of helping people.

I'm not the only conservative here who thinks this bill is dangerous, am I? Is everyone else in lock-step with the party? Somebody please...

[ironmonk]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Apr 5 2006, 11:10 PM']You could at least thank her for correcting your flawed theology. (spirit is what made him incarnate )
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The theology is not flawed. The error lies in your interpretation.

Her point was saying that Jesus' flesh is what made Him great... The point I was making is that His Spirit is why His flesh was great.

Also, thank you.

[b][url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/ecclesiastes/ecclesiastes10.htm"]Ecclesiastes 10:2[/url] [/b]

[ironmonk]

[quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Apr 5 2006, 11:19 PM']so, if an illegal is in need of a place to stay then it is a felony to help them.  If you give them a sandwich and a bottle of water and say, "make sure to sleep next to a vent" then that's fine.

Reside...remain...they mean stay.  So if you help them stay in the country, via a shelter or even just out of your own kindness, then you are a felon.  Perfect! 

Look, I'm as arch-conservative as the next guy...but this is a serious blurring of the government's relationship to the Church.  If we are constrained in any way from providing charity to these people...that's serious.  That's to be fought.

I'm reminded of Christ talking to lepers and Samaritans.  Touching them even.  That broke the laws of His time.  You really should err on the side of helping people. 

I'm not the only conservative here who thinks this bill is dangerous, am I?  Is everyone else in lock-step with the party?  Somebody please...
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[/quote]


Helping illegals stay in the country now is a sin. It is a sin because it is breaking the law. Everyone who helps an illegal stay in the country is sinning.

If they need a place to stay, there are options WITHOUT sinning... They can stay at the immigration office until they are sent home.

You and they might not like that option, but the bottom line is if we think a venial sin is ok, then we lack the love for God that we should have.

Explain to me why it is ok to do venial sins and how we are showing our love for Christ because we disagree with the Church's teaching.





Also... My liking this bill has nothing to do with the party. I have posted plenty of logical and Catholic reasons to support it.

The current laws are not working because too many people lack the love that they should have for God and fail to avoid venial sins. How else is the USA suppose to be able to regulate it's immigration... it has to try other means.