The problems with the way liberals think...

[homeschoolmom]

no, she thumps

[Jaime]

and she's a fan of Blak Coke

[AngelofJesus]

I could only aspire to "unravel" like Thump.

[Socrates]

No one is saying it is wrong to give these people needed food, etc. That is simply propaganda, and Mahoney is playing politics here.
As others have pointed out, the illegals should be given a good meal and then handed over to authorities.

This is about enforcing the law. There is a huge illegal immigration problem in this country, and doing things to help keep illegal immigrants in the country helps excacerbate the problem. (Though I agree tighter enforcement at the border should be first priority.)

And I'm not buying that Catholic charity demands we aid and encourage illegal immigration. These people are knowingly breaking the law in migrating here illegally, and thus they are suffering the consequences of their lawless actions.

[Azriel]

Ok, bear with me, but doesn't the bill specifically stay that giving aid - any aid, is illegal and punishable?

[jasJis]

[quote name='Azriel' date='Apr 5 2006, 04:53 PM']Ok, bear with me, but doesn't the bill specifically stay that giving aid  - any aid, is illegal and punishable?
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Uh. No. With willfal disregard of the immigration laws of the US. It would have to be proven you KNEW they were illegal aliens and that you were helping them in their illegal pursuit. I.E.:Labor pimps, employers knowingly hiring illegals, labor sumgglers, someone aiding a foreign terrorist. Georgia, and Florida I know have had this law for years. I know of a number of food services to the poor. I know of nobody being arrested serving or receiving food. But 'CARDINAL' Mahoney knows that it really is an injustice to the illegal immigrants and has fanned the political flames and joined the 'REVEREND' Jackson and the 'REVEREND' Sharpton. Ecumenism at it's finest.

[Jaime]

[quote name='jasJis' date='Apr 5 2006, 08:00 PM']Uh.  No.  With willfal disregard of the immigration laws of the US.  It would have to be proven you KNEW they were illegal aliens and that you were helping them in their illegal pursuit.    I.E.:Labor pimps, employers knowingly hiring illegals, labor sumgglers, someone aiding a foreign terrorist.  Georgia, and Florida I know have had this law for years.  I know of a number of food services to the poor.  I know of nobody being arrested serving or receiving food.  But 'CARDINAL' Mahoney knows that it really is an injustice to the illegal immigrants and has fanned the political flames and joined the 'REVEREND' Jackson and the 'REVEREND' Sharpton.  Ecumenism at it's finest.
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Just because you keep misreading it doesn't make it true

here is the actual bill

[quote] `(1) PROHIBITED ACTIVITIES- Whoever--

                  `(A) assists, encourages, directs, or induces a person to come to or enter the United States, or to attempt to come to or enter the United States, knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such person is an alien who lacks lawful authority to come to or enter the United States;

                  `(B) assists, encourages, directs, or induces a person to come to or enter the United States at a place other than a designated port of entry or place other than as designated by the Secretary of Homeland Security, regardless of whether such person has official permission or lawful authority to be in the United States, knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such person is an alien;

                  `© assists, encourages, directs, or induces a person to reside in or remain in the United States, or to attempt to reside in or remain in the United States, knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such person is an alien who lacks lawful authority to reside in or remain in the United States;

                  `(D) transports or moves a person in the United States, knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such person is an alien who lacks lawful authority to enter or be in the United States, where the transportation or movement will aid or further in any manner the person's illegal entry into or illegal presence in the United States;

                  `(E) harbors, conceals, or shields from detection a person in the United States knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such person is an alien who lacks lawful authority to be in the United States;

                  `(F) transports, moves, harbors, conceals, or shields from detection a person outside of the United States knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such person is an alien in unlawful transit from one country to another or on the high seas, under circumstances in which the person is in fact seeking to enter the United States without official permission or lawful authority; or

                  `(G) conspires or attempts to commit any of the preceding acts,

            shall be punished as provided in paragraph (2), regardless of any official action which may later be taken with respect to such ali[/quote]

Personal misinterpretation or spin doesn't cut it Jas.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Thumper' date='Apr 5 2006, 12:26 PM']I'm always intrigued to unravel the implications of your arguments, IM. 
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[/quote]

I only see a lack of logic, knowledge of the faith, completely ignoring what has been posted, or a combination of the three.

[quote]1)  Have you noticed that in the Catholic Church our spiritual needs are met through a physical medium--i.e., through the sacraments?  Perhaps you have particularly heard of the most holy Eucharist, the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ?  [/quote]

Physical medium does not equal physical need. We are not talking about a Sacrament, what gives all physical medium any value is the Spirit, not the physical item.

[quote]2)  Speaking of our Lord, it is essential to remember that he is the Word INCARNATE.  We do not just believe in a spiritual God, but in a God who came to share in our embodiment.  BTW, his body rose as well (that's why the tomb was empty).  [/quote]

What made Him the Word INCARNATE IS His Spirit. NOT His Flesh. Seriously backward thinking with this pseudo point.


[quote] 3)  I agree that all physical needs will pass.  But that's not because our physicality will pass--remember, Catholic's believe in the resurrection of the body given our belief in point 2 above.  [/quote]

This is irrelevant to the argument.

[quote]4)  Spiritual needs will in fact pass, praise God, when we share eternal life with Him in heaven.  Faith and hope will pass away, God will be in all in all through the communion of love.  [/quote]

Spiritual needs will never pass. Even when we are in Heaven, our spiritual need will be to please God. Even the saints in Heaven pray to the Lord as seen in the Scriptures, prayer is a spiritual need... it does not stop when we go to Heaven.

[quote]5)  Regarding your point that it is a sin to place the physical before the spiritual, it is pretty clear from Matthew 25 that when one sees someone who is hungry, thirsty, a stranger, naked, sick, or in prison, and one does not respond to their physical needs, one is in fact sinning in a manner that is worthy of eternal condemnation--unless we're being turned into goats for venial sins in which case I'm just going to haunt the confessional.  That doesn’t mean that you couldn’t offer them something spiritual as well; but at least in this case, the physical needs have a clear claim upon the person wishing to act in a moral manner. [/quote]

Here is where the lack of logic comes to blossom - and ignorance of what I have posted. First and foremost is not to sin. Physical needs before spiritual needs are wrong. All wrongdoing is a sin (1 John 5:17). St. Matt. 6 is quite clear that we are first to seek the kingdom - The Gospels, the Catechism, the Church Fathers, the Saints... all quite clear that spiritual needs far outweigh our physical needs... the saints would rather die, and many did, than sin even a single venial sin.

All sins are a step backward from seeking the kingdom. [u]I was very clear in that we [b]should[/b] feed those who are hungry[/u], so you have no point, your entire post is mute and asinine to say the least. The only way not to sin in regards to illegal aliens is to give them food, water, AND help them get back to their country of origin. Helping illegally stay in America is a sin... it is a sin because it is breaking a just law according to the Catholic Church as clearly shown in a previous post where I quoted the Catechism. Although it is probably a venial sin, it is still a sin. Helping them get back to their country can simply be encouraging them to go home, and they can wait with you for immigration to come and see that they get safely home. NO WHERE have I ever written that we should not feed them or give them water. This only goes to show that liberals do not think right... they think wrong... because you imply something that IS NOT even hinted to. Replying to you is a waste of time because it's like you don't even read the posts. And you actually think that you unravel points I post?! LOL Most of them are not my points, I'm just a parrot of the Church... you can't unravel what God has built.

[quote]The implication of your argument:  giving too much priority to spirituality over physicality can lead one into some dark alleys regarding little things like dogma and the gospel.[/quote]

Catholic dogma is the explanation of the Gospels.

You have the right to rationalize venial sin all you want... just so you know, it shows a severe lack of love for the Lord when we see no problem with venial sin.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Azriel' date='Apr 5 2006, 06:53 PM']Ok, bear with me, but doesn't the bill specifically stay that giving aid  - any aid, is illegal and punishable?
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[/quote]


Not at all... but of course if someone went to court and got a liberal judge, there is no telling what kind of wacked out interpretation he would have.

Helping someone stay illegally in America would be a felony... nothing would be wrong with giving someone food and water... giving them shelter without reporting them to the authorities would be a felony... Also, if it becomes a felony to be illegal, then it would be a third degree felony to not report an illegal alien to the authorities... which in turn would be a sin not to do because it is breaking a just law. But one would have to know someone was illegal.

I believe being illegal now is just a misdemeanor, and citizens are not required to report misdemeanors.

Helping someone now stay in America illegally is at least a venial sin. Please see St. Escriva's quotes that I posted about venial sins.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[ironmonk]

[quote name='AngelofJesus' date='Apr 5 2006, 02:25 PM']I could only aspire to "unravel" like Thump.
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[/quote]

Why would you want to do that?

Please see Post #53.

[Jaime]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Apr 5 2006, 10:07 PM']Not at all... but of course if someone went to court and got a liberal judge, there is no telling what kind of wacked out interpretation he would have.

Helping someone stay illegally in America would be a felony... nothing would be wrong with giving someone food and water... giving them shelter without reporting them to the authorities would be a felony... Also, if it becomes a felony to be illegal, then it would be a third degree felony to not report an illegal alien to the authorities... which in turn would be a sin not to do because it is breaking a just law. But one would have to know someone was illegal.

I believe being illegal now is just a misdemeanor, and citizens are not required to report misdemeanors.

Helping someone now stay in America illegally is at least a venial sin. Please see St. Escriva's quotes that I posted about venial sins.
God Bless,
ironmonk
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[/quote]

granted I'm still on ignore probably but the actual provision has been posted again.

It is very clear

You now have been corrected twice

[Socrates]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Apr 5 2006, 08:16 PM']granted I'm still on ignore probably but the actual provision has been posted again.

It is very clear

You now have been corrected twice
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Yes, we all read the law you posted, yet it says absolutely nothing about giving people food or water.

Therefore, your arguments have no basis.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Apr 5 2006, 10:19 PM']Yes, we all read the law you posted, yet it says absolutely nothing about giving people food or water.

Therefore, your arguments have no basis.
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[/quote]


First its a bill.

Secondly how is giving food or water not defined as assisting?

Keep digging. The hole just gets deeper kids.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Apr 5 2006, 10:19 PM']Yes, we all read the law you posted, yet it says absolutely nothing about giving people food or water.

Therefore, your arguments have no basis.
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[/quote]

:cry:I love you man...

[Cam42]