The problems with the way liberals think...

[MC Just]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Apr 4 2006, 10:08 AM']Liberals are illogical in their thinking.

Why they are illogical in thinking, can be found in the foundation of their "logic" or lack thereof, which is their priorities.

Liberals place material/physical needs over spiritual needs, and this of course is a very backwards way to think. So they will have no logical reasoning in their arguments. I believe this is why many of us who place spiritual needs first have such a hard time explaining the most basic concepts to them.

This is why Mahony is not a good example of the Catholic Church. Since the beginning of the Church, it has been stressed that spiritual needs are of greater importance than our physical needs.

Of course the liberals will try to argue that Christ says take care of the poor... Of course we all know this, and we do take care of the poor. The poor are people who are poor through nothing of their own fault. Being lazy or illegally in the USA does not equal poor. Since we have adequatly covered the lazy part in another thread, we'll cover the illegals here.

By coming to America illegally people put themselves in harms way. This is of their own doing. Helping them stay in America by providing shelter and jobs is a sin because it breaks the law. Remember, sprititual needs come first, the first spiritual need in a human's life is to avoid all sin... not some sin... not when it fits you... but all sin.

Liberals do not realize (or maybe they are too lazy to think?) that [u][b]the only just way to help illegals is to give them a meal, and help them get home to their country. [/b][/u]If they want to help them out of poverty, then pay for their education in Mexico and send money to Catholic Churches in Mexico to help the families. The liberal leaders of course will be against that because illegal immigration is big business and it will cost them a lot of money. If people are sending money to people in Mexico instead of crooked liberals in America, then the liberals won't be able to get their free meal anymore and might have to find a real job.

Spiritual needs outweigh all physical needs. All physical needs will pass. Spiritual needs are forever. "Seek first the kingdom of God" means that our priorities must start with the Spirit.... To put a physical need infront of a spiritual need is wrong, and therefore a sin... I would think it's venial, but it is still a sin. To embrace a venial sin and do it because you know it's venial, then it just might become grave.

No one is saying do not give food, water, or medical treatment to illegals, nor does the bill even imply this. To assume that Mahony is competant in the matter is foolish. Encouraging someone to stay in America is providing a job and a place to stay... Give illegals food, water,  and medical treatment and help them get back to their country of origin if you do not want to sin.

It is time people learn to think, and to know how to think one's priorities must be in order... Spirit comes first, everything else is after that. When spiritual needs are first, "NOT sinning" is the first priority.

There is nothing unjust about saying illegal aliens are illegal... There is nothing unjust about making it a felony to give a job or shelter to illegals. This bill targets those who abuse illegals and those who make it easy to be illegal.

AGAIN, to those who pick or or two lines above and ignore the context, [b]PAY ATTENTION:[/b]
Feed illegals, give them water, give them medical attention [u][b]AND[/b][/u] help them get back to their country (this includes calling the immigration department). NO ONE is saying make illegals suffer.
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I agree 100%. Your always on point. Liberals are weird.

[Didacus]

OK OK OK

I've read you silly americans arguing over back and forth on this issue for days on end now... Can I say a little something? I know I'm just a little Canadien from up north but seems that the whole situation is far simpler than it seems.

1. RIght and wrong is never as simple as a 'rule book'. Treat everyone with kindness and charity, including illegal aliens (and your ennemy - correct?).

2. There is a difference between giving someone charity (relieving their suffering) and helping them commit a crime. Problem comes when relieving suffering contributes to perpetuating a crime.

3. Very few people argued a third option; help the illegal immigrants become legal?


Personally, I will not hesitate to give help to illegal aliens; however, the opportunity to help will also have from me the effort to correct the wrong of the situation - aka, the illegal status. I will help them survive and relieve their suffering, I would open my door to them, but I would also contact the authorities. This does not mean I would wash my hands of them thereafter - I would follow-up and help them either in their journey home, or in their mission to become US citizens.

I think your silly Americans are really making too much of this.



Back to you Bob...

[Didacus]

Oh, and PS;

Iron, I agree with you 100% as far as liberals are concerned. They value wordly existence above spiritual reality hence why we (Fatihful Catholics) are a world apart from them.

[AngelofJesus]

Unrealistic is right. I think we all pretty much agree that there needs to be a better system for people to be able to work here legally. The fact that they are here and what to do with them is where the contention lies. In addition, it is also unrealistic to think that even with the easing of the immigration laws that there would not be any illegal crossings into the US.
Faced with that reality what do we do?

I think that the bill should be focused right now on how to give legal status to the 11 million illegals here and for those who want to work here. Next, step should be to educate the ones that are still here illegally on how to obtain legal status. If they are still here illegally and do not want legal status then I would think there is probable cause that they are doing something illegal besides being here.

[Peccator]

I find it strange that Mexicans can get in and eventually stay so easily. I've applied numerous times for a mere work permit for the states and was fltly told "NO WAY"...

[Jaime]

[quote]Spiritual needs outweigh all physical needs. All physical needs will pass. Spiritual needs are forever. "Seek first the kingdom of God" means that our priorities must start with the Spirit.... To put a physical need infront of a spiritual need is wrong, and therefore a sin... I would think it's venial, but it is still a sin. To embrace a venial sin and do it because you know it's venial, then it just might become grave.[/quote]

exactly. And here is the point that conservatives miss over and over again. Giving aid and comfort to the poor (whether those poor are here legally or not) [b]fulfills our spiritual needs[/b]. Offering aid to those less fortunate without conditions helps our souls and is what we will be judged on.

This is why Mahoney (in this case) is an excellent example of the Church. He understands that it is our responsibility.

[quote]2446 St. John Chrysostom vigorously recalls this: "Not to enable the poor to share in our goods is to steal from them and deprive them of life. The goods we possess are not ours, but theirs."239 "The demands of justice must be satisfied first of all; that which is already due in justice is not to be offered as a gift of charity":240[/quote]

[quote]2447 The works of mercy are charitable actions by which we come to the aid of our neighbor in his spiritual and bodily necessities.242 Instructing, advising, consoling, comforting are spiritual works of mercy, as are forgiving and bearing wrongs patiently. The corporal works of mercy consist especially in feeding the hungry, sheltering the homeless, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and imprisoned, and burying the dead.243 Among all these, giving alms to the poor is one of the chief witnesses to fraternal charity: it is also a work of justice pleasing to God:244[/quote]


If you had heard anyone argue that our borders should be open, that would be illogical. But you have not. No one has posted anything to suggest that.

To even suggest that the Church "help" illegals return to their native country is ludicrous. You are suggesting that the Church police the poor. That is not the role of the Church.

It is our salvation we are working towards as well as theirs.

Edited April 4, 2006 by jaime

[Era Might]

Conservatives are stupid-heads.

[Jaime]

[quote]AGAIN, to those who pick or or two lines above and ignore the context, PAY ATTENTION:
Feed illegals, give them water, give them medical attention AND help them get back to their country (this includes calling the immigration department). NO ONE is saying make illegals suffer.
[/quote]

And yet you ignore that the bill that is being protested does exactly that.

Anyone giving aid or comfort can be charged with a felony. There is no arguing around that.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='Apr 4 2006, 02:27 PM']Also, you might note that following a law that goes against God's law is a sin. Some might say, even the CC I might imagine, that the notion that immigration laws goes against the natural law. Therefore, to give a job to an immigrant is not only not a sin, it is a sin not to give the job because he's an immigrant.
Of course that argument is based on the idea that we are not lacking resources. We are the richest nation in the world, no one is really close to suffering, yet we are preventing people from coming. The worst we might do is take from people a little of their affluence and inconvenience them a little.

Your theories that we have limited resources do well in theory. Too bad they're lacking in reality.

If there are laws that attack the illegals that abuse our system, that's fine. I'm only talking of the laws that abuse the natural order.

PS Is that really true, or when did JasJis become ex-Catholic and all that?
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Dairy,
We are not talking about immigrants, we are talking about illegal immigrants.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Apr 4 2006, 12:45 PM']It's not about being "conservative."

It's about being "Republican."
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Actually most hard-core conservatives I read think Bush and most Republicans are way too lax on immigration.

The most ardent and consistent critics of our current high-immigration policies I am aware of are Pat Buchanan and the late Samuel Francis, who have regularly castigated Bush and the Republican Party for not cracking down harder on illegal immigration, and tightening immigration policies. Now I'm aware you'll probably disagree with most of what they say on this, but they are not Republicans, and tend to disagree with most of Bush's policies. Further, they are devout Catholics.
Buchanan deals with this, among other issues, in his 2002 book, [url="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002XH6SY/qid=1144196106/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/002-2323353-4496057?s=books&v=glance&n=283155"][i]The Death of the West[/i][/url].
The chapter, "La Reconquista," gives a powerful case for limiting immigration.
You may not buy all his arguments, but I'd suggest reading it with an open mind if you want to hear a case against immigration from a true Catholic, non-Republican conservative.

One cannot honestly claim that supporting measures against illegal immigration is based solely on slavish loyalty to the Republican Party, or is contrary to the Catholic Faith.

[ironmonk]

Liberals tend to ignore the spiritual and think that the ends justify the means. In the liberals confused way of thinking, they see that they are helping someone poor live by offering them shelter and encouraging them to stay in America. But they fail to realize that they are sinning by doing so. They are sinning because they are breaking a just law. The Catechism states that a nation has a right to regulate immigration. No real Catholic can fabricate a logical arguement against this.

The liberals do not realize that those of us who have our priorities straight, that is spiritual needs above physical needs, are not saying let them starve, we are saying give them aid and help them get home. Then help push for legislation to make it easier for good people to come here legally.

Let's break it down another way....
[u][b]The ends DO NOT justify the means.[/b][/u]

[b]The ends: [/b]Giving shelter to the homeless (in this case illegal immigrants)

[b]The means: [/b]breaking the law and not wanting to allow a nation to regulate immigration.

By being illegal immigrants these people put themselves in harms way. They give up their right to shelter in the USA by being illegal. Out of compassion we should give them food and water, but out of Catholic teaching we must help them go home.

[u][b]The means JUSTIFY the ends.[/b][/u]

[b]The means: [/b]Giving food and water to hungry illegal immigrants, and helping them get back to their country of origin.

[b]The ends:[/b] Remaining lawful as the Catholic Church teaches us as we are required to follow the laws because all authority on earth is allowed to be authority by God.

This way, no sin is involved. No option is acceptable if there is any sin involved.

Another problem with liberals is that they tend to act like spoiled little brats that do not get their way, so they throw a fit. Life is not about doing what we want, we were made for God, not for ourselves... This means that if we want to be good Catholics, we need to avoid all sin, not just the sins that we don't like.

Look at the lives of the Saints... they would rather die than sin. If anyone thinks that a venial sin such as helping an illegal alien stay in America is ok, then what little love for God that they have. Anytime someone thinks a sin is ok, then love for God is lacking.


[quote][i]The duties of citizens[/i]
[b]2238 [/b]Those subject to authority should regard those in authority as representatives of God, who has made them stewards of his gifts:43 "Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution. . . . Live as free men, yet without using your freedom as a pretext for evil; but live as servants of God."44 Their loyal collaboration includes the right, and at times the duty, to voice their just criticisms of that which seems harmful to the dignity of persons and to the good of the community.


[b]2239 [/b]
It is the duty of citizens to contribute along with the civil authorities to the good of society in a spirit of truth, justice, solidarity, and freedom. The love and service of one's country follow from the duty of gratitude and belong to the order of charity. Submission to legitimate authorities and service of the common good require citizens to fulfill their roles in the life of the political community.


[b]2240 [/b]
Submission to authority and co-responsibility for the common good make it morally obligatory to pay taxes, to exercise the right to vote, and to defend one's country:


Pay to all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.45

[Christians] reside in their own nations, but as resident aliens. They participate in all things as citizens and endure all things as foreigners. . . . They obey the established laws and their way of life surpasses the laws. . . . So noble is the position to which God has assigned them that they are not allowed to desert it.46

The Apostle exhorts us to offer prayers and thanksgiving for kings and all who exercise authority, "that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way."47

[b]2241 [/b]
The more prosperous nations are obliged, to the extent they are able, to welcome the foreigner in search of the security and the means of livelihood which he cannot find in his country of origin. Public authorities should see to it that the natural right is respected that places a guest under the protection of those who receive him.

[u][b]Political authorities, for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible, may make the exercise of the right to immigrate subject to various juridical conditions[/b][/u], especially with regard to the immigrants' duties toward their country of adoption. Immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the country that receives them, [u][b]to obey its laws and to assist in carrying civic burdens[/b][/u].

[b]2242 [/b]
The citizen is obliged in conscience not to follow the directives of civil authorities when they are contrary to the demands of the moral order, to the fundamental rights of persons or the teachings of the Gospel. Refusing obedience to civil authorities, when their demands are contrary to those of an upright conscience, finds its justification in the distinction between serving God and serving the political community. "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."48 "We must obey God rather than men":49


When citizens are under the oppression of a public authority which oversteps its competence, they should still not refuse to give or to do what is objectively demanded of them by the common good; but it is legitimate for them to defend their own rights and those of their fellow citizens against the abuse of this authority within the limits of the natural law and the Law of the Gospel.50
[/quote]


If someone wants to try to pull the "unjust law" string then they have to ignore CCC 2241. If they ignore CCC 2241 then it proves that their conscience is not an upright one.... note: upright, not upleft.


Helping illegals stay in the USA is a sin.

When we sin, we turn our backs on Christ and drive the nails that put Him on the cross. There is no such thing as a white lie. There is no such thing as a justifiable sin. There is such a thing as our love and faith being weak.



And some quotes from St. Escriva to meditate on...

[b]The Way:
328 [/b] How little Love of God you have when you yield without a fight because it is not a grave sin!


[b]331 [/b]You are lukewarm if you carry out lazily and reluctantly those things that have to do with our Lord; if deliberately or 'shrewdly' you look for some way of cutting down your duties; if you think only of yourself and of your comfort; if your conversations are idle and vain; if you do not abhor venial sin; if you act from human motives.

[b]386 [/b]Don't forget, my son, that for you on earth there is but one evil, which you must fear and avoid with the grace of God: sin.


[b]The Forge:[/b]
[b]114 [/b]Ask the Lord to grant you all the sensitivity you need to realise how evil venial sin is, so as to recognise it as an outright and fundamental enemy of your soul, and, with God's grace, to avoid it.

[b]414 [/b]There is a Spanish saying which speaks clearly enough: Entre santa y santo, pared de cal y canto (``Twixt holy man and holy maid, a wall of solid stone be laid'').

We have to watch over our hearts and our senses, and pull ourselves away from all occasions of sin. No matter how holy it may appear, passion must not have its way.

[b]1002 [/b]Lord, you died on the Cross to save mankind. And yet for one mortal sin you condemn a man to a hapless eternity of suffering. How much sin must offend you, and how much I ought to hate it!

[b]1029 [/b]With your whole heart, ask for death, and a thousand deaths, rather than offend your God.

And not because of the punishment due to sin, which we deserve so much, but because Jesus has been and is so good to you.





Edited note: This has nothing to do with rep or dem, this has to do with right and wrong. It is wrong to sin. The law is just according to the CCC. So be Catholic, or don't... it's up to you. If you think that any sin is ok, then you lack love for God.... I'm posting this for the sake of your soul... No sin is acceptable. None. If anyone tells you that some sins are acceptable, then they are bogged down by some sin you don't know of. To sin is to lack the love we should have for God... if you disagree you have that right, I have fulfilled my obligation to speak the truth as taught by God through the Church.

God Bless,
ironmonk

[Era Might]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Apr 4 2006, 07:37 PM']Remaining lawful as the Catholic Church teaches us as we are required to follow the laws because all authority on earth is allowed to be authority by God.[right][snapback]935743[/snapback][/right]
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Laws injurious to the common good, or at odds with the Christian vocation, are not binding.

[ironmonk]

Another note...
It's not really about liberal vs. conservative... it's about right and wrong.... Liberal and wrong are pretty much synomous, although they sometimes like to be called "left" because they are opposite of right.

Right and left in regards to mindedness is not talking about sides here... Right is talking about the right and just thing to do. The opposite of that is "wrong"... but of course leftists are not that dumb to call themselves wrong so they have to go with another term: Left...


Want to correct me??? Am I wrong???

Do so with Scripture and Catholic documents... or change for Christ... if you love Him, don't sin and don't condone sinning.

[dUSt]

I love Ironmonk more than my mom.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Apr 4 2006, 07:48 PM']Laws injurious to the common good, or at odds with the Christian vocation, are not binding.
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Oh really? Wow... I just quoted that above in the Catechism quote that proves that the stance I hold is in direct line with the teaching of the Church...

But thanks for pointing it out again...

The bill is not against the common good.
The bill is not at odds with the Catholic teaching.
The bill is totally justifed by Catholic teaching.

Maybe you should read the post again.... or I misunderstood your intent for echoing what I had already posted.