The problems with the way liberals think...

[Shawn]

Criminals are not the people we need solidarity above all else, their victims are.

The myth that illegal immigrants are merely economic refugees trying to improve their lives is exactly that, a myth. Mexican illegal AND legal immigration is also made up of criminal gangs intent on waging violence against US citizens. These people should be dealth with firmly through deportation, not sympathy.

Then there are those who want to return much of the southwest to Mexico. The idea that such people are victims we need to have solidarity withy is the kind of sick and brainless liberal stupidity that Americans are increasingly tired of.

The reference to unjust government does not apply in this case as protecting the nation and its citizens IS justice. There is nothing just about illegal "immigration".

According to your view anyone can decide their religious views trump the soveriegnty of the US people and its laws.

So if a Muslim decides that US laws are less important than the "morality" of the Koran then according to your argument they can disobey those laws. How about laws against wife beating? Or killing Muslims who convert to another faith?

As anyone can see, this opens a can of very dangerous worms.

You say we need to put aside the law for a moment. carp. Putting aside the law is excactly the freaking problem. Millions of Mexicans already have put it aside the law and chosen to break it.

As to putting ouselves in their shoes, I suggets putting yourtself in the shoes of a raped 14 year old who was the victim of Mexicans who decided, like you, that US laws just are not important. when they felt like it.

It says something about your morality that you only want to put yourself in the shoes of rapists, gangs and drug runners.

On Sept 11 a Muslim called Osama bin Laden decide that the laws, rights, property and lives were less important than his religious views.

To put it bluntly, a grwoing number of Americans are sick and tired of people putting deciding when our laws and lives are important.

[Era Might]

[quote]Criminals are not the people we need solidarity above all else, their victims are. [/quote]

Most illegal immigrants are NOT gang members. This is not about "victims".

[quote]The myth that illegal immigrants are merely economic refugees trying to improve their lives is exactly that, a myth. Mexican illegal AND legal immigration is also made up of criminal gangs intent on waging violence against US citizens. These people should be dealth with firmly through deportation, not sympathy.[/quote]

"Merely"? No. Of course there are people coming here with bad intentions. That is NOT the fault of honest illegal immigrants. There are 10 or 11 million of them, most who are here WORKING, not engaging in immoral activity.

[quote]Then there are those who want to return much of the southwest to Mexico. The idea that such people are victims we need to have solidarity withy is the kind of sick and brainless liberal stupidity that Americans are increasingly tired of.[/quote]

Solidarity extends to ALL men, because they are human beings. It doesn't matter how sinful they are. We owe them solidarity because Christ died for them. And the answer to this is the same as above.

[quote]The reference to unjust government does not apply in this case as protecting the nation and its citizens IS justice. There is nothing just about illegal "immigration".[/quote]

If you don't think it applies, that's fine. You have a right to your opinion, as does everyone else. Some people may disagree.

[quote]According to your view anyone can decide their religious views trump the soveriegnty of the US people and its laws. [/quote]

If the the US people and its laws are immoral, yes, the moral law trumps them.

[quote]So if a Muslim decides that US laws are less important than the "morality" of the Koran then according to your argument they can disobey those laws. How about laws against wife beating? Or killing Muslims who convert to another faith?[/quote]

All action is based on a correct understanding of the moral law.

[quote]As to putting ouselves in their shoes, I suggets putting yourtself in the shoes of a raped 14 year old who was the victim of Mexicans who decided, like you, that US laws just are not important. when they felt like it.

It says something about your morality that you only want to put yourself in the shoes of rapists, gangs and drug runners.[/quote]

I'm sorry about whatever happened to you personally, but the majority of illegal immigrants are NOT rapists, gang members, or drug runners.

[quote]On Sept 11 a Muslim called Osama bin Laden decide that the laws, rights, property and lives were less important than his religious views.

To put it bluntly, a grwoing number of Americans are sick and tired of people putting deciding when our laws and lives are important.[/quote]

It's not about whether laws are important. It's about whether laws are JUST and not injurious to the common good. And when they are, they will be opposed, or reformed.

[Didacus]

You americans are really caugt up in all this aren't you?

This stuff must have been going on for some time for everyone to be so pationate.








Back to you Bob...

[Era Might]

Il font se Americans!

[jasJis]

Didacus,
Yes, Americans are really caught up in this. At the root of this, is what it is to be an American, what it is to be who we are.

Americans know the only real natives are the American Indians. Almost all of us are of immigrant heritage, whether a few years ago, or a number of generations. We aren't ex-Brits who live in North America and call ourselves Canadian, or ex-French who call oursleves French Canadians. We are Americans because we adopt this country as our new homeland and know we are adopted by each other, despite the number of different homelands we came from. We haven't always been perfect at implementing that reality with our fellow citizens and immigrants, but when push comes to shove, we get past our dysfunctional family and claim our adopted siblings as blood family. Many of us are 'passionate' about that.

This mexican immigration thing was a problem that was ignored and mishandled for decades. They are an oddity because of our shared border. Everyone else came here by boat (kinda). Whether from Cuba, Africa, Asia, or Europe. Somehow we ended up treating Mexicans as in-laws or third-cousins. We let them hang out with us, but we never allowed them to be adopted by us, nor really cared if they wanted to adopt us.

Even God has standards of behavior and requirements if we want to be adopted Children of God (ie, Baptism). The US Government is not perfect, nor are any of it's citizens or leaders. Cut us a break. There are NO OTHER Governements in existence that are more just, more fair on the scale the US is. Freedom of speech and freedom to follow God the way our conscience moves us are prime examples.

We're human and a human institution. Give us some time to work things out. Some of the immigrants are criminals who only mean to do evil to others here in the US. Most of the immigrants are criminals who broke the law for economic opportunity. The US needed them, wanted them, and for a time, it was to mutual benefit to 'look the other way'. That was wrong and now we have a problem to fix. It's just as stupid to ignore the reality that evil persons are taking advantage of the situation as it is to ignore the reality that it is good, right, and just to correct what went on because the US needs to allow these immigrants to adopt us and we adopt them as kindred immigrants, as fellow immigrant Americans.
It's cool to be American because it's really a recognition of sharing the immigrant status. (And we tip waitresses too! lol)

[ironmonk]

After watching numerous illegal interviews of "good" illegals I think the way to solve the problem is this...

1) better border protection to stop illegals from getting in

2) send every illegal back to where they came from that has been here less than five years

3) help Mexico by going in and building bigger and better schools... devout some money from the government for this because it will help slow illegal immigration into the USA. The amount would need to be determined. Also donations from citizens would be good to help out here. We've been helping Africa, let's also help our neighbor Mexico

4) Make it easier for good Mexicans to come to America legally

5) Support and promote to American companies to move their factories from China to Mexico.


Helping Mexican's help themselves will cut back on illegal migration drastically and solve many people's problems instead of treating a symptom of a problem.

Also, these illegals in Mexico saving up $5000 to come here illegally must not be doing to bad in Mexico to be able to save up that much.

[AngelofJesus]

Dang jas you got it right on.


I wish you could have the same sentiments about your catholiscism.
[quote]We're human and a human institution. Give us some time to work things out. [/quote]

[jasJis]

Intriguing, Monk. I disagree with number 2 about sending them back. I'm for having a registration program for all. If you've been here 5 years or more, have new proceedures to gain citizenship if they want, but a year after implementation, I don't care if you've been here 50 years or 50 days. If you haven't bothered to register for a work visa, get-outta-here! Sorry about your luck.

#3 and #5 I hadn't thougt of. I likey in principle. The problem I have with giving Mexico $$ for better schools is that we've already given billion$ in aid but it seems their government is too corrupt to use it wisely. (Makes me think 'regieme change' but that's a sticky wicket.)

Edit to add:
The $5k is a HUGE deal. They borrow from loan sharks and stuff. It's about the equivalent to us paying $100,000 in an attempt to get a job on a Gulf of Mexico oil platform paying $200,000 a year. It's a huge, but shakey, investment.

Edited April 12, 2006 by jasJis

[ironmonk]

When I'm talking about helping Mexico out with cash, I am not meaning to give it to the government, give it to organizations like the Church that will see that it gets put to proper use.

Note that I wrote: "going in"... I meant that litterally. It's obvious that their government cannot get it right.

[jasJis]

[quote name='AngelofJesus' date='Apr 12 2006, 09:06 AM']Dang jas you got it right on.
I wish you could have the same sentiments about your catholiscism.

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[/quote]Snicker. The government doesn't make any 'serious' claims as being infallible in the creation or enforcement of legislature.

[Jaime]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Apr 12 2006, 12:03 PM']When I'm talking about helping Mexico out with cash, I am not meaning to give it to the government, give it to organizations like the Church that will see that it gets put to proper use.

Note that I wrote: "going in"... I meant that litterally. It's obvious that their government cannot get it right.
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[/quote]


One good thing that the Mexican govt is doing is financing the ISO 9000 process for Mexican based companies. Becoming ISO certified is a huge and costly process but it allows companies to compete better on the global market. Europe has taken strongly to it (its been slower in the US).


Incidentally I agree with many of your points Monk.