The problems with the way liberals think...

[Jaime]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Apr 9 2006, 03:25 PM']Nothing changed with the wording of the bill, yet to think that the "legislators heard the bishops"...

As I have said, it targets the employers that take advantage of the illegal aliens.


Thanks for helping point out the errors.
Era,
Breaking the law is a sin. Someone on the way to the hospital speeding is not breaking the law. If an illegal comes to American and is in danger of dying unjustly in his home country, then it might not be sinning. This is common sense. Illegals looking for an easier life and being illegal are sinning, helping illegals stay in the USA is still sinning. Yes it is probably venial... but to dismiss a sin because it is venial is a sign of a lack of love that we should have for God. Many saints died because they wouldn't even do a venial sin.

If someone thinks that venial sins are not serious (not as in grave) then they have missed many points of the Catholic Faith.

When options are available that involve no sin, then that is the moral route to take... otherwise we are in the wrong. I prefer to be right in God's eyes... I love God, since Christ died for me, I don't want to offend Him in any way, not even in venial sin because of the love He has for us.

Apply deeper thought to it and listen to the saints.
[b]
All laws that do not contradict the Catholic Faith are binding.[/b]
[b]1897 [/b]
"Human society can be neither well-ordered nor prosperous unless it has some people invested with legitimate authority to preserve its institutions and to devote themselves as far as is necessary to work and care for the good of all."15

By "authority" one means the quality by virtue of which persons or institutions make laws and give orders to men and [u]expect obedience from them.[/u]
[b]1898 [/b]
Every human community needs an authority to govern it.16 The foundation of such authority lies in human nature. It is necessary for the unity of the state. Its role is to ensure as far as possible the common good of the society.
[b]1899 [/b]
The authority required by the moral order derives from God: "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. [u]Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment[/u]."17
[b]1900 [/b]
The duty of obedience requires all to give due honor to authority and to treat those who are charged to exercise it with respect, and, insofar as it is deserved, with gratitude and good-will.
Pope St. Clement of Rome provides the Church's most ancient prayer for political authorities:18 "Grant to them, Lord, health, peace, concord, and stability, so that they may exercise without offense the sovereignty that you have given them. Master, heavenly King of the ages, you give glory, honor, and power over the things of earth to the sons of men. Direct, Lord, their counsel, following what is pleasing and acceptable in your sight, so that by exercising with devotion and in peace and gentleness the power that you have given to them, they may find favor with you."19
God Bless,
ironmonk
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From the transcript of Meet the Press April 9

[quote]MR. RUSSERT: But if an illegal immigrant is working on a farm or a ranch in Texas, and cuts his arm or hand off they should not be given medical assistance, and they would be fined, whoever treated them, for violating the law that you voted for.

REP. BONILLA: The plight of many illegal aliens—and by the way, of course, our hospitals are compassionate and will continue to serve people who need help—but the plight...


MR. RUSSERT: [b]Would that be breaking the—would that be breaking law[/b]?

REP. BONILLA: [b]It probably would be,[/b] but the hospitals are not going to be held accountable. But first and foremost, the plight of a lot of these illegal aliens, a lot of people want to—the demonstrators and critics—want to blame our country for their problems. You know, these dysfunctional, oppressive, in many cases, governments where these people flee, flee from are the, the ones that are responsible for the unfortunate situation these people are in, and they’re not doing a darned thing to help their own people.[/quote]


So its in question. Congressmen that have voted for it are not all of the same mind.

Protesting against the bill is just. As I've said, the language will most likely change in committee.

[jasJis]

I'm not about to read all the inane regurgitation of opinion to the obstinate ignorant. (hmmmm... maybe I should read them. LOL)

But really. Think about what just happened. We almost had a law that would have given an avenue for 8 million illegal workers to be come legal and apply for citizenship. But that didn't happen because people were arguing about minor details. So what if a few people go to jail for being a good samaritan to a few illegal immigrants. The greater good would have been done by granting real legal protection to 8 million people. These 8 million could become citizens (I know LOTS of children of immigrants who are young adults now and can easily prove residence for 5 or more hears) and they would be a REAL political force.

The problem with liberals is they are using these 11million people in a bigger political game. They would rather cry about the imperfection of human laws that MAY penalize someone giving legitimate aid at the IMMEDIATE expense of 8 million people.

That's prioritizing! Thanks Cardinal Mahoney for another stellar example of who the Catholic Church promotes. I certainly understand why the ruckus in this thread. The liberals can't balance a number of principles and can't see the bigger picture. Most Catholics are that way too. EENS!

[Jaime]

[quote]I'm not about to read all the inane regurgitation of opinion to the obstinate ignorant. (hmmmm... maybe I should read them. LOL)[/quote]

So Jas has set his own SN to ignore? Interesting

[Sojourner]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Apr 9 2006, 07:43 PM']So Jas has set his own SN to ignore?  Interesting
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[jasJis]

Still fishing for some thought provoking response...
A little observation. I live and work near Plant City, the strawberry capitol of Florida. We have tons of immigrant workers (legal and illegal) for the construction and agricultural jobs. Lot's of demonstrations will be held today. According to my hispanic friends and employees, they are demonstrating for the government to fix the immigration programs so they can be here legally and/or apply for citizenship. NOT A SINGLE ONE is demonstrating against laws that make it illegal to help illegal. They don't think it's a real problem, even though it has been illegal to help illegals in Florida for years.
What's up with that? Ruining a ship for a happeth of tar?

[dspen2005]

i might be mistakened... but isn't the Church's Social teaching on this issue -- free immigration and open borders?

[jasJis]

No. Read the thread.

[dspen2005]

[quote name='jasJis' date='Apr 10 2006, 01:07 PM']No.  Read the thread.
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that would take time

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='dspen2005' date='Apr 10 2006, 10:29 PM']that would take time
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[dspen2005]

glad to put a smile on your face, toledo

[Shawn]

Era claims we need a profound solidarity with illegal immigrants.

carp.

We need a profound solidarity with the victims of Mexican invasion. The property owners hos places are trashed by people invading the US. The thousands of victims of Mexican gangs that have murdered US citizens and turned some town and cities into war zones.

There is no reason to have solidarity wiyth criminals. And it is immoral to do so, Era claims that American laws are not informed by "Catholic" morals. Fine. Leave. If you want a country that is, choose one of the many Catholic paradises south of the border. Just try to avoid the invaders coming the other way.

This is the US. MY forefathers and mothers shed blood and died to have an independent nation. in which the laws were made by the people and not by foriegn tyrants. If you dont like our laws, get out.

[Era Might]

As quoted before in this thread:

[quote]'I was a stranger and you welcomed me.' Today the illegal migrant comes before us like that 'stranger' in whom Jesus asks to be recognized.  To welcome him and show him solidarity is a duty of hospitality and fidelity to Christian identity itself.

-Pope John Paul II,  Annual message for World Migration Day, 1996[/quote]

Edited April 12, 2006 by Era Might

[Era Might]

[quote]Era claims that American laws are not informed by "Catholic" morals. Fine. Leave. If you want a country that is, choose one of the many Catholic paradises south of the border. Just try to avoid the invaders coming the other way.[/quote]

I have as much a right to change this country as anyone else.

[quote]This is the US. MY forefathers  and mothers shed blood and died to have an independent nation. in which the laws were made by the people and not by foriegn tyrants. If you dont like our laws, get out.[/quote]

This nation is built on the right to stand against an unjust government. From the Declaration of Independence:

[quote]We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. [b]That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness[/b]. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security.[/quote]

Edited April 12, 2006 by Era Might

[Era Might]

[quote name='Shawn' date='Apr 12 2006, 03:37 AM']There is no reason to have solidarity wiyth criminals. And it is immoral to do so[right][snapback]944504[/snapback][/right]
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Criminals are the ones to whom to owe solidarity above all else:

[quote]The principle of solidarity, also articulated in terms of "friendship" or "social charity," is a direct demand of human and Christian brotherhood.

An error, "today abundantly widespread, is disregard for the law of human solidarity and charity, dictated and imposed both by our common origin and by the equality in rational nature of all men, whatever nation they belong to. This law is sealed by the sacrifice of redemption offered by Jesus Christ on the altar of the Cross to his heavenly Father, on behalf of sinful humanity."

--CCC 1939[/quote]

Whether illegal immigrants have broken the law or not, spiting them with cold rhetoric about breaking HUMAN laws is foreign to the mind of the Church. And this is not about whether America has a right to regulate its borders, because it does. This is about putting aside "the Law" for a second, and recognizing that it is not absolute. It is imperative that we have compassion on people who only break CIVlL laws to escape a desparate situation. And if we believe this is imprudent or counter-productive, that's fine. But these people are NOT monsters. The sooner we put ourselves in their shoes, and see the desperation they see, and the opportunity they see in America, I can't understand how we can judge them for making the decision they make. God forbid we had to face that situation, and I would pray that people would show us compassion if we did.

"The Law was made for man, not man for the law."

Edited April 12, 2006 by Era Might

[Era Might]

And just to show the other side the coin, that I [i]am[/i] concerned about securing the border, here's my post from another thread:

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=50017&view=findpost&p=929979"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...ndpost&p=929979[/url]