Liturgical abuses?

[Cam42]

[url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html#Chapter%20IV"]Redemptionis Sacramentum[/url]

There ya go. Especially nos. 183-184.

[Era Might]

[quote]Therefore no other person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in the liturgy on his own authority.

--Second Vatican Ecumenical Council, Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy "Sacrosanctum Concilium"[/quote]

The Liturgy is not our play thing. It is the public worship of the Church, and this is why Liturgical abuse is such a serious matter. The Holy Father has spoken at length in the past of the need, quote, to "be more obedient to the norms, not as a juridical positivism, but really as sharing, participating what is given to us from the Lord in the Church." It's not about legalism, but truly uniting oneself with the Universal Church in her prayer.

In dealing with Liturgical abuse, Canon Law upholds our right to actively correct it, so long as we always keep the virtues in mind:

[quote]They [the Laity] have the right, indeed at times the duty, in keeping with their knowledge, competence and position, to manifest to the sacred Pastors their views on matters which concern the good of the Church. They have the right also to make their views known to others of Christ's faithful, but in doing so they must always respect the integrity of faith and morals, show due reverence to the Pastors and take into account both the common good and the dignity of individuals.

--Canon 212[/quote]

[Brother Adam]

Sigh. I really don't have time to get into a pissing match with you, but since you absolutely insist.

[quote]but all faithful have an obligation to work to correct liturgical abuses[/quote]

I said: "Then pray." as well as "Your priest has to answer for the salvation of the souls of his parish and he is facing the fire of hell."

"545. Why is our prayer efficacious?

Our prayer is efficacious because it is united in faith with the prayer of Jesus. In him Christian prayer becomes a communion of love with the Father. In this way we can present our petitions to God and be heard: "Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full' (John 16:24)" - Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church

"But among the lay faithful this one baptismal dignity takes on a manner of life which sets a person apart, without, however, bringing about a separation from the ministerial priesthood or from men and women religious. The Second Vatican Council has described this manner of life as the "secular character": "The secular character is properly and particularly that of the lay faithful."" - Christifideles Laici 15.

"To the apostles and their successors Christ has entrusted the office of teaching, sanctifying, and governing in his name and by his power." - CCC 873

"The spiritual gift they [priests] have received in ordination prepares them, not for a limited and restricted mission, but for the fullest, in fact the universal mission of salvation 'to the end of the earth." - CCC 1565

"By reason of their special vocation it belongs to the laity to seek the kingdom of God by engaging in the temporal afairs and directing them according to God's will." CCC 897


I never denied or downplayed the document you quoted. I hadn't even been introduced. I happen to think prayer is greater than writing letters. I never denied the importance of the document, but said writing letters was a valid means of seeking to better the Church.

Cmom said:

"But you can ask him for clarification of something going on in the parish."

It seems everyone agreed a gentle approach, rather than "correcting" which does imply something rather harsher, than clarification or seeking answers. It implies and authority over. Parents "correct" children, not the other way around.

Hence I said "Yes, but we don't faternally correct them." I made the disticntion right there.

You went on to say "Not according to Redemptionis Sacramentum."

The document says: "Any Catholic, whether Priest or Deacon or lay member of Christ's faithful, has the right to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse to the diocesan Bishop or the competent Ordinary equivalent to him in law,"

Of course they do. Anyone is free to. However, I think you will be hard pressed to find a priest that won't covet your prayers as much as your complaints. Now, you were of course right to say that it is important to talk to a priest. However EENS and Dave attacked my reasoning to pray, which I was addressing, not your post.

Now, moving on, I said

"Ultimately, it is quite likely you will be ignored unless it is a very serious abuse"

I believe this is true. I'm willing to bet, in most cases, letters complaining about holding hands, folks genuflecting instead of bowing during communion, the use of guitars, and so on, probably wont be addressed in the immediate by a bishop. I also have faith that our bishops know the state of what is going on in their flocks. I also believe if the issue is serious enough, that a diocesian office, though maybe not the bishop himself will respond.

Now, curtins original question was about if he should continue ushering if the priest is going to let the kids gather around the altar. I think the greatest good is always to pray. That is why I suggested prayer when I don't know the priest, the parish, or all of the details.

Now, you are free to continue fighting me if you want. I haven't necessarily disagreed with anything you or Cam has said.

[curtins]

I mentioned this whole thing to my mom- she basically said that I am not going to write a letter to my priest and that I'm taking it too far. Sooooooo


Does anyone know exactly where it says that the priest can't have people up to the alter ? (especially at concecration)


thanks

btw if i brought it up with him whether it be through letter, meeting etc--- I would be as charitable as possible etc

I'm not planning on marching into the rectory yelling and screaming lol

Edited April 3, 2006 by curtins

[JudgedByGod]

[quote name='curtins' date='Apr 2 2006, 07:36 PM']I mentioned this whole thing to my mom- she basically said that I am not going to write a letter to my priest and that I'm taking it too far. Sooooooo
Does anyone know exactly where it says that the priest can't have people up to the alter ? (especially at concecration)
thanks

btw if i brought it up with him whether it be through letter, meeting etc--- I would be as charitable as possible etc

I'm not planning on marching into the rectory yelling and screaming lol
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I'm still working on learning more about church documents, but here are a couple of links that might help you.
[url="http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/non-ordained.htm"]http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/non-ordained.htm[/url]
[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0276.html"]http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/...ion/re0276.html[/url]

In my opinion, you should address the issue with your priest before taking any further action. I'm sure you will be extremely nice about it, but make sure it is done with complete respect so that it isn't assumed that you think you are more qualified and know more than him. Perhaps he hasn't really thought about it before and by saying something he'll do some research and decide to change things. If not, then write a letter to your bishop.

I'm currently going through a similar situation with liturgical abuses. I've been doing some research and I'll probably go to the chancery to see if there are any diocese documents on it, but then I will talk with the priest. If nothing changes, I will write to the bishop and pray that things are taken care of.

Good Luck!! and make sure that before you write a letter or talk with him that you pray and ask the Holy Spirit to guide you.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='curtins' date='Apr 2 2006, 06:36 PM']
btw if i brought it up with him whether it be through letter, meeting etc--- I would be as charitable as possible etc
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Just think of him as your father and act accordingly.

[dUSt]

When the church instructs us that "everyone do [b]all[/b] in their power" to protect the liturgy, and you limit this to praying, with no other action, then I think that comes down to personal limitations. It's a simple matter of conscience I suppose. If you feel praying is the most effective way for [b]you[/b] to use [b]all[/b] your power, then that's a matter of your conscience. Simple.

I'll cease with this dialogue, as I think I've done all I can. I'll simply close by copying a section of Redemptionis Sacramentum, along with dictionary definitions, verbatim. Note the highlights. Words in red will be defined.

[b]Redemptionis Sacramentum[/b]

[183.] In an altogether particular manner, [b]let [color=red]everyone[/color] do [color=red]all[/color] that is in their power [/b]to ensure that the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist will be protected from any and every irreverence or distortion and that all abuses be thoroughly corrected. [b]This is a most serious [color=red]duty incumbent [/color]upon each and every one, and all are [color=red]bound[/color] to carry it out [/b]without any favouritism.

[184.] [b]Any Catholic[/b], whether Priest or Deacon [b]or lay member [/b]of Christ’s faithful, has the right to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse...

[b]eve·ry·one[/b] - Every person; everybody.
[b]all [/b]- Being the utmost possible of:
[b]du·ty[/b] - Moral obligation:
[b]in·cum·bent [/b] - Imposed as an obligation or duty; obligatory:
[b]bound[/b] - Being under legal or moral obligation:

[Brother Adam]

I'm glad. Now i can go back to spending my research time helping one young Catholic lady that she doesn't have to engage in lesbian acts to please her husband, another young man that suicide is not the best way to avoid his debts, and another friend that the Catholic Church does not that you can choose to be saved after death.

[element]

[quote name='heyyoimjohnny' date='Apr 2 2006, 02:51 PM']p.s. this argument is kinda depressing.
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Welcome to most EVERY argument on the forum...

[Lil Red]

[quote name='inDEED' date='Apr 1 2006, 09:47 PM']If you're so "concerned", go to him. [right][snapback]932821[/snapback][/right][/quote]
[quote name='Cam42' date='Apr 1 2006, 10:54 PM']No need to add the cute smiley.....it is our RIGHT to expect a valid and licit Mass according to the Roman Rite.  If  we don't get it, we should make the abuses known to the pastor, then the bishop, then if all else fails, the Holy See.

It is crystal clear.

As my Liturgical mantra has been for a while now:

[b]WE HAVE A RIGHT TO THE MASS, BUT WE DO NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO THE MASS THE WAY WE WANT IT.[/b][right][snapback]932998[/snapback][/right][/quote]thank you.
[quote name='dUSt' date='Apr 1 2006, 11:00 PM']Let [b]us[/b] not correct the priest at all, as it is the bishop's job. What we [b]can[/b] do is talk to the priest before going to the bishop.[right][snapback]933011[/snapback][/right][/quote]

[dUSt]

[quote name='heyyoimjohnny' date='Apr 2 2006, 03:51 PM']p.s. this argument is kinda depressing.
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Why do you think this argument is depressing?

It's not really an argument anyway. It's mostly just one person telling us why he doesn't feel it's necessary to follow the obligations defined in Redemptionis Sacramentum. I pray that this isn't an FUS influenced thing.

[ardillacid]

sounds like fun, invite me next time

[jezic]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 1 2006, 11:18 PM']Bishops typically know exactly what is going on. Y
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Our bishop has said many times that he really doesn't know what is going on in most of the parishes. He tries to keep up on everything and the Vicar Generals are amazing, but there is to much for him to do.

We have a small diocese.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Apr 3 2006, 11:42 AM']Why do you think this argument is depressing?

It's not really an argument anyway. It's mostly just one person telling us why he doesn't feel it's necessary to follow the obligations defined in Redemptionis Sacramentum. I pray that this isn't an FUS influenced thing.  [right][snapback]934202[/snapback][/right][/quote]and on that note, this is getting moved to the debate table

[Theoketos]

What a shame that we even have to talk about such things.

They best way to change the way the Liturgy prepared in your parish is to join whatever committee is in charge of preparing the liturgy. Every Parish I have been to or know of that has the abuses has one of these. This is were most of the whacky ideas come from. And if you go with the documents and knowledge documents only this is not enough. You must go with Charity. People respect that.

In my own Parish, after I did this we went from having the Tabernacle in the old broom closet to being in the center of the Church behind the altar, from the priest wearing a shirt and tie to wearing a cassock with clerics, from washing only women’s feet on holy Thursday to washing only men’s feet, all like the rubrics demand, from Haugan and Hass to Chant and even certain Mass parts in Latin.

Writing letters, should be a last resort, and have a weight behind that can burn bridges and worse they probably are inconsequential immediately. This however does not mean that they should not be sent.

It must be noted that in the end doing anything is better then doing nothing, we must do something. Pray and Action, words and deeds.