cappie Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 If the priest was to claim that he is acting in accordance with the Directory For Masses with children then the following note is of interest Concerning Eucharistic Prayers for Masses with Children, I would refer you to number 4 of the 1974 decree of the Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship, Postquam de Precibus: "Use of a Eucharistic Prayer for Masses with Children is restricted to Masses that are celebrated with children alone or Masses at which the [b]majority of the participants are children.[/b] "A community of children means one so considered by the Directory for Masses with Children, that is, one consisting of children who have not yet reached the age referred to as preadolescence." If this is not the case then the priest is operating outside the guidelines, perhaps he is mistaken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 Thanks Father! Also, it was pointed out to me that my stance on this issue might make me appear to be "on a pedestal". I hope that by me simply referring to official church documents, and attempting to defend these documents, I am viewed by most as simply being a servant to the church. I welcome and encourage those of you who are arguing against my points to refer to church documents in support of your view--without them, we are no better off than Joe Shmoe non-denominational guy. I pray that being labelled "on a pedestal" would also not apply to me if I were to attempt to defend the Real Presence in the Eucharist when dialoguing with Protestants. If that is the label I must bear, then so be it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OLAM Dad Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 [quote name='dUSt' date='Apr 2 2006, 01:34 AM']I welcome and encourage those of you who are arguing against my points to refer to church documents in support of your view--without them, we are no better off than Joe Shmoe non-denominational guy. [right][snapback]933073[/snapback][/right] [/quote] It's hard to do this when the documents get in the way of what you 'feel' is right. Regarding bringing a concern to the priest directly... Were I a priest I would not appreciate somebody sending a concern that they had with me to my boss (Bishop) without first talking to me about it. As such, I would never avoid talking first to my priest about a concern that I had. The priest can then either: 1. Correct me by showing me why my concern is invalid or wrong. 2. Correct himself. Believe it or not this does happen. 3. Ignore my concern (knowing full well that my next step is writing the bishop a letter) A few months ago a local pastor made an announcement that he would be performing the Annointing of the Sick at a healing Mass in a few weeks and he said that you don't have to be physically sick to need healing and that all were welcome to come forward for the annointing. I pointed out his error and the following week he corrected himself. He THANKED me for pointing out his misunderstanding. Going to the Bishop was not necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cappie Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 [quote name='OLAM Dad' date='Apr 2 2006, 06:34 PM'] you don't have to be physically sick to need healing and that all were welcome to come forward for the annointing. [right][snapback]933080[/snapback][/right] [/quote] But you can be mentally ill to be anointed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtins Posted April 2, 2006 Author Share Posted April 2, 2006 ok I didn't really think this would get so heated....... I think I'm going to write a letter to my priest about this. as bro adam suggested I will pray about it and maybe even bring it up at youth group today. I'm actually not going to that mass today cause when I woke up my mom was still asleep and then she woke up and said she wanted to go later so...... thanks pham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 (edited) [quote name='dUSt' date='Apr 2 2006, 12:54 AM']So, based on your limited experience, and speaking with employees, you feel that you are justified in ignoring the instruction given to us in Redemptionis Sacramentum. Why? Laziness? Okay, I suppose. [b]I'm[/b] definitely not comfortable doing that. My point was that proper catechesis will not come without a proper liturgy, and I believe they are connected more than you may believe, but am too lazy to find the documents that point this out right now. Great idea! So have you changed your stance from "Pray" to "Pray [b]and[/b] make a phone call"? If so, I'm glad we're getting somewhere! If not, I don't think you've made a strong enough case as to why we should so easily disregard the instructions in Redemptionis Sacramentum. [right][snapback]933061[/snapback][/right] [/quote] *not worth it*. you're not listening. whatever, its not surprising. Good luck with that. Please do post the letter you get back from the bishop. Edited April 2, 2006 by Brother Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 This is one of the reasons why I'm not a practicing Catholic any more. I couldn't attend a Mass without all the 'liturgical abuses' occupying most of my mind. Ignorance was bliss (and a little more holy). Licit/illicit, valid/invalid, proper,improper, good/bad, I practically had two canon lawyers whispering and arguing in each ear. Very unpleasant curtins, in your attempt to 'correct' a priest, please consider your age, social position, and education. The benifit of the doubt should go to the priest. If you are that uncomfortable, Mateo has (in my non-Catholic opinion) the perfect solution. You are uncomfortable, you don't think it's right, you can't participate, and you will attend another mass. Simple. Do this in a conversation with the priest. The Holy Spirit will find more opportunity to work in a human conversation than a letter, in which, I agree Bro Adam is right, will be tossed to the side for more immediate and pressing concerns. Besides, what are YOUR qualifications to question a priest, director of liturgy, or bishop? Or you could find a person with an alphabet of degrees and classes and qualifications and get her/him to write the letter, that is, if they aren't already to busy correcting al the abuses in their own diocese... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 (edited) [quote name='jasJis' date='Apr 2 2006, 08:07 AM']This is one of the reasons why I'm not a practicing Catholic any more. I couldn't attend a Mass without all the 'liturgical abuses' occupying most of my mind. Ignorance was bliss (and a little more holy). Licit/illicit, valid/invalid, proper,improper, good/bad, I practically had two canon lawyers whispering and arguing in each ear. Very unpleasant curtins, in your attempt to 'correct' a priest, please consider your age, social position, and education. The benifit of the doubt should go to the priest. If you are that uncomfortable, Mateo has (in my non-Catholic opinion) the perfect solution. You are uncomfortable, you don't think it's right, you can't participate, and you will attend another mass. Simple. Do this in a conversation with the priest. The Holy Spirit will find more opportunity to work in a human conversation than a letter, in which, I agree Bro Adam is right, will be tossed to the side for more immediate and pressing concerns. Besides, what are YOUR qualifications to question a priest, director of liturgy, or bishop? Or you could find a person with an alphabet of degrees and classes and qualifications and get her/him to write the letter, that is, if they aren't already to busy correcting al the abuses in their own diocese... [right][snapback]933125[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Yeah I agree.I don't deny exactly what the documents say, those are legit routes one can take, but rather advocate proactive work that has, in the past, been known to be the most effective course of action to make the most changes over time for the greatest good. Building relationships. Gosh. What was I thinking! Edited April 2, 2006 by Brother Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noel's angel Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 My experience with regards to Liturgical abuse has been positive. My priest is encouraging when I ask him about various things that take place during Mass, especially during the Children's Masses we have once a month. He actually wants to know if he is doing something wrong, so as he can fix it because sometimes priests do things without realising that they're a bit iffy. I know that not all priests are the same, I have had a bad experience with a bishop with regards to Liturgical abuse. Its difficult to get the right balance and not seem like you're telling the priest that you can do a better job than him. As long as you don't go in pointing fingers and saying 'you do this wrong and that wrong and I'm going to write to the bishop....' then I think it's perfectly reasonable to question your priest about certain aspects of the Mass. Humility is the key. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 [quote name='Noel's angel' date='Apr 2 2006, 10:25 AM']My experience with regards to Liturgical abuse has been positive. My priest is encouraging [b]when I ask him[/b] about various things that take place during Mass, especially during the Children's Masses we have once a month. He actually wants to know if he is doing something wrong, so as he can fix it because sometimes priests do things without realising that they're a bit iffy. I know that not all priests are the same, I have had a bad experience with a bishop with regards to Liturgical abuse. Its difficult to get the right balance and not seem like you're telling the priest that you can do a better job than him. As long as you don't go in pointing fingers and saying 'you do this wrong and that wrong and I'm going to write to the bishop....' then I think it's perfectly reasonable to question your priest about certain aspects of the Mass. Humility is the key. [right][snapback]933181[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Same here. Asking questions does wonders better than "The such and such document says and you are in the wrong, so you need to change it." I've seen a lot of people try that, and I'm afraid that is the impression some people get from the constitution on the liturgy, that they have any right to do that. To me, just writing a letter is the whiners way out. Its another form of complaining. I think going above and beyond that is what we should strive for... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 Well, Bro Adam, you have changed your position from the beginning of this post then. I probably wouldn't even have replied in this thread if you had advocated phone calls and asking questions in the beginning. The reality is, earlier you said that upon witnessing a liturgical abuse your only remedy was to pray, and discouraged interaction with the priest. I'm glad you have changed your tone. Attending another mass is not the answer. That's the Protestant solution. I have been guilty of this in my own life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 (edited) I haven't changed my position anymore than you have. Remember, you were the one who implied that we should correct our priests. Then you said we should not correct our priests. Then you said you didn't really mean that we should correct our priests. I also suggested calling on the premise that you will figure out rather quickly that your letters will be ignored. Nice try. The object of course is to win the war, even if it means losing a battle or two. That's what most bishops and priests have in mind. At least, that is what I have been taught, and I have faith in my edumacation. Edited April 2, 2006 by Brother Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 2 2006, 01:59 PM']I haven't changed my position anymore than you have. Remember, you were the one who implied that we should correct our priests. Then you said we should not correct our priests. Then you said you didn't really mean that we should correct our priests. I also suggested calling on the premise that you will figure out rather quickly that your letters will be ignored. Nice try. [/quote] "Correct" your priest, "ask" your priest, "talk to" your priest. Who cares what is "implied" or how you define it? How you interpret or pick apart my language, word structure or "implied meaning" is really irrelevant and an attempted distraction to the real point and a waste of time (and you know this). We should correct/ask/talk to our priests. Don't distort the method of which I proposed to do this though. We shouldn't walk up to them and say, "Look Father, you're doing this wrong, and that wrong and this isn't allowed, blah, blah, blah". That would be unproductive, and I never advocated that. What we [b]should[/b] do is exactly what Redemptionis Sacramentum instructs us to do. I suggested talking to the priest first out of common courtesy. Don't try to get out of the fact that you are diminishing the value of Redemptionis Sacramentum by telling us that it's instructions are futile. You are the one that has failed to quote a church document and are trying to feed us a personal viewpoint not in line with church teaching. I'm simply attempting to defend and promote a recent, official church document that was obviously put out for a reason. What you [b]are[/b] doing is making the perfect case of [b]why[/b] this document was needed at this time, and sadly, is largely being ignored (suprisingly to me, by apparently devout Catholics). [quote]The object of course is to win the war, even if it means losing a battle or two. That's what most bishops and priests have in mind. At least, that is what I have been taught, and I have faith in my edumacation. [right][snapback]933350[/snapback][/right][/quote] But you cannot invent or promote your own ideas of how to win the battle. Be guided by the church. Be obedient. And please, address actual points and stop arguing for the sake of arguing. [b]Point:[/b] You are undermining the instructions in Redemptionis Sacramentum because you don't think they work. .. Please address this point, preferably from the perspective of being obedient to the church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 OMG! A fight! And I thought dUSt never posted any more. This is gonna be good. Your turn, Bro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heyyoimjohnny Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 (edited) dUSt, do you have a link for the Redemptionis Sacramentum document so I can read it? p.s. this argument is kinda depressing. Edited April 2, 2006 by heyyoimjohnny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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