Liturgical abuses?

[inDEED]

Either way, it's the same Eucharist and the same Mass.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Apr 2 2006, 12:00 AM']But I thought you said it was not your role to correct a priest? What you are advocating here is "long term correction".

Let [b]us[/b] not correct the priest at all, as it is the bishop's job. What we [b]can[/b] do is talk to the priest before going to the bishop.

No need to tallywack around.
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[/quote]

So correct the bishop. I look foreward to the letter you get back about how he had no clue there were any liturgical abuses in his diocese and it took your enlightenment, how he will go and chastize the priest post haste.

I'd be willing to put money on you never getting a letter back.

[dUSt]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 1 2006, 10:59 PM']tell ya' what Dust. You write your letter. And as soon as you have a perfect, liturgical abuse free mass by correcting your priest and bishop, please let me know.
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[/quote]
Please do not twist my words. I do not advocate personally correcting a priest, and certainly not a bishop. How dare I. It is the bishop's job to correct a priest and Rome's job to correct a bishop.

It is [b]my[/b] duty (see Redemptionis Sacramentum) to make the abuse known.

[inDEED]

I love Lifeteen and the fact that it's the most widely sanctioned youth ministry program in the entire world.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Apr 2 2006, 12:04 AM']Please do not twist my words. I do not advocate correcting a priest, and certainly not a bishop. How dare I. It is the bishop's job to correct a priest and Rome's job to correct a bishop.

It is [b]my[/b] duty (see Redemptionus Sacramentum) to make the abuse known.
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[/quote]

Brother Adam said: "Unless you are a bishop or his spiritual director it is not your place to correct a priest."

Dust said: "Not according to Redemptionus Sacramentum."

[Mateo el Feo]

In some cases, I might recommend obedience. But, in this case, there's nothing forcing you to participate in this. I assume that your parish has masses where this abuse does not occur. You can still fulfil your obligation to worship God without acting as an usher.

If you feel comfortable, you could talk with your priest. A comment that is short and sweet is best. Something like: "I can't serve as an usher for the kids' mass. I've got apprehensions about kids gathering around the altar during mass. I am going to attend another mass."

In this way, you're not trying to tell him what to do. You don't have to argue with him about the abuse. You are acting well within the bounds of your freedom. And, you're making a statement that he will remember.

Just FYI: I can't find a quote against the "kids at the altar" situation, but I believe that Lifeteen was criticized for this practice by Cardinal Arinze, and agreed to cease having the altar gatherings (among other abuses).

[dUSt]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 1 2006, 11:03 PM']So correct the bishop. I look foreward to the letter you get back about how he had no clue there were any liturgical abuses in his diocese and it took your enlightenment, how he will go and chastize the priest post haste.

I'd be willing to put money on you never getting a letter back.
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[/quote]
What you are are discouraging here in your posts directly contradicts Redemptionis Sacramentum, and makes me questions your obedience to the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacrament. You are blowing off this document as if your personal methods would work much better.

[Brother Adam]

Please address post #50 and I will address this one.

[dUSt]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 1 2006, 11:05 PM']Brother Adam said: "Unless you are a bishop or his spiritual director it is not your place to correct a priest."

Dust said: "Not according to Redemptionus Sacramentum."
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I didn't mean it implied that we should correct our priests personally (as if we had the authority). I meant it outlines the procedure for us to set the wheels in motion to get the priest corrected. Your post implied that we should take no action at all except prayer.

[Brother Adam]

Then I would ask you to take all of my posts in context as well, and allow me to clarify when necessary. I advocate prayer, mainly, in small litrugical abuses. Bishops typically know exactly what is going on. You can write letters, but a bishop, as well as priests, can only do so much. I'd bet if you talk to your priest there really are more pressing issues than minor liturgical abuses. Bishops are also extremely busy people, and unless it is serious, probably won't have time to respond to your letter. I'm not saying liturgical abuses are "okay", nor am I saying that you don't have the right to write to your bishop. But in our culture, with as many extremely poorly catechized people as are sitting in the pew, they won't even begin to understand why any change is made (such as the priest warning them not to hold hands), when they don't even understand what a sacrament is. I've talked to local Catholic townies here in steubenville who have sat in the pew half their lives and don't believe in the real presence. To me, whether or not someone receiving the Eucharist believes in the Eucharist is a more pressing issue than minor liturgical abuses. The bishop, and the priests are responsible for their salvation. If I was a preist and had to choose between catechizing my flock on the Eucharist or catechizing them on liturgical abuse, I'd pick the Eucharist first.

Edited April 2, 2006 by Brother Adam

[HisChild]

[quote name='inDEED' date='Apr 1 2006, 11:05 PM']I love Lifeteen and the fact that it's the most widely sanctioned youth ministry program in the entire world.
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[/quote]

This was a discussion about Life Teen?

As an aside though, Life Teen has come under scrutiny from Cardinal Arinze and Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments, when LT went to Rome to get some of its more unique practices officially sanctioned. They were denied. Our own diocesan bishop actually went to Rome to meet with CDWDS, for this purpose.

So, while it's a great youth ministry program, and a greatmany people defend it, a lot of its former practices are no longer able to be used during Mass.

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' date='Apr 1 2006, 11:07 PM']Just FYI: I can't find a quote against the "kids at the altar" situation, but I believe that Lifeteen was criticized for this practice by Cardinal Arinze, and agreed to cease having the altar gatherings (among other abuses).
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[/quote]

[url="http://www.blessedsacrament.com/theology/q193.html"]http://www.blessedsacrament.com/theology/q193.html[/url]

I used to go to LT Masses, at several parishes not only in the Phoenix area, but also in St Louis. It wasn't until I learned that a lot of what was being done during the Mass was not approved, that I started to consider alternatives. As I said before, many of those things that caused concern for many, have been denied by Rome.

This Q&A session also states that the person answering this question is the 'founder of the movement' which would then have to be Msgr Dale Fushek.

[dUSt]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 1 2006, 11:18 PM']Then I would ask you to take all of my posts in context as well, and allow me to clarify when necessary. I advocate prayer, mainly, in small litrugical abuses. Bishops typically know exactly what is going on. You can write letters, but a bishop, as well as priests, can only do so much. I'd bet if you talk to your priest there really are more pressing issues than minor liturgical abuses. Bishops are also extremely busy people, and unless it is serious, probably won't have time to respond to your letter.[/quote]
Well, maybe it's because I work in corporate communications for a large company that I know how things work in large organizations. Any successful CEO will tell you that no matter how small an issue seems to be, you must [b]report[/b] it. Issues are prioritized and tracked based largely on the volume of complaints. You know what? If my letter about music during the consecration goes un-returned, so what? I wait a month or two and if nothing happens, I write a letter to Rome.

But if 1000 letters from the same parish regarding the same matter get sent? That's a huge difference. It starts with one letter. The "bishop is busy" is no excuse for the laity to be lazy.

[quote]I'm not saying liturgical abuses are "okay", nor am I saying that you don't have the right to write to your bishop. But in our culture, with as many extremely poorly catechized people as are sitting in the pew, they won't even begin to understand why any change is made (such as the priest warning them not to hold hands), when they don't even understand what a sacrament is. I've talked to local Catholic townies here in steubenville who have sat in the pew half their lives and don't believe in the real presence. To me, whether or not someone receiving the Eucharist believes in the Eucharist is a more pressing issue than minor liturgical abuses.[/quote]
Of course it is. But then again, there is an undeniable link between people not believing in the Eucharist [b]because[/b] of poorly executed liturgies. Hence the reason for needed action in getting our liturgies corrected.

[quote]The bishop, and the priests are responsible for their salvation. If I was a preist and had to choose between catechizing my flock on the Eucharist or catechizing them on liturgical abuse, I'd pick the Eucharist first.[right][snapback]933033[/snapback][/right][/quote]
See above. You can't separate the two man. Catechizing on the Eucharist and requiring a proper liturgy are so deeply intertwined you must have both or neither.

[Brother Adam]

As one DRE friend said "The Church is great at preaching social justice, but they smell of elderberries at practicing it." There are some things the Church needs work on. In my limited experience (but not that limited) a Bishop will never see a letter like this. Or so I've been told by diocesian employees in three different dioceses. That they get letters like this all the time. And they are away of the problems, but like I said, they also have priorities. And this is the Catholic Church. Wheels turn slow. Too slow for the liking of the SSPX

And I agree they are in some small way connected, but not to the degree I believe you are trying to connect them. While the liturgy is an excellent way (the best way) to catechize, and it is even possible that the Holy Spirit will reach people solely through the liturgy it is the responbility of the Church, lay catechists, priests, and bishops (as the principle catechist) to educate through traditional catehesis as well.

I'd even encourage you, instead of writing a letter (or with your letter), to call the diocesian office and ask to speak to the appropriate person. I think you will find that you will receive a quicker answer and be able to understand the situation in your own diocese better.

Edited April 2, 2006 by Brother Adam

[dUSt]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 1 2006, 11:41 PM']As one DRE friend said "The Church is great at preaching social justice, but they smell of elderberries at practicing it." There are some things the Church needs work on. In my limited experience (but not that limited) a Bishop will never see a letter like this. Or so I've been told by diocesian employees in three different dioceses. That they get letters like this all the time. And they are away of the problems, but like I said, they also have priorities. And this is the Catholic Church. Wheels turn slow. Too slow for the liking of the SSPX [/quote]
So, based on your limited experience, and speaking with employees, you feel that you are justified in ignoring the instruction given to us in Redemptionis Sacramentum. Why? Laziness? Okay, I suppose. [b]I'm[/b] definitely not comfortable doing that.

[quote]And I agree they are in some small way connected, but not to the degree I believe you are trying to connect them. While the liturgy is an excellent way (the best way) to catechize, and it is even possible that the Holy Spirit will reach people solely through the liturgy it is the responbility of the Church, lay catechists, priests, and bishops (as the principle catechist) to educate through traditional catehesis as well. [/quote]
My point was that proper catechesis will not come without a proper liturgy, and I believe they are connected more than you may believe, but am too lazy to find the documents that point this out right now.

[quote]I'd even encourage you, instead of writing a letter (or with your letter), to call the diocesian office and ask to speak to the appropriate person. I think you will find that you will receive a quicker answer and be able to understand the situation in your own diocese better.[right][snapback]933058[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
Great idea! So have you changed your stance from "Pray" to "Pray [b]and[/b] make a phone call"? If so, I'm glad we're getting somewhere! If not, I don't think you've made a strong enough case as to why we should so easily disregard the instructions in Redemptionis Sacramentum.

[Dust's Sister]

Dust I thought you were going to bed early.. One of the phatmassers just left... Were meeting him at McDonalds at 10:30 am on EastChase...