Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 [quote name='Charms717RM1' date='Apr 1 2006, 11:45 PM']how is this relevent? [right][snapback]932979[/snapback][/right] [/quote] apparently we can not correct priests.....ever its FALSE OBIDIENCE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 [quote name='dUSt' date='Apr 2 2006, 12:35 AM']First, talk to the priest. Ask him about his actions and how they align with church instruction regarding the liturgy (you might want to bring the specific documents with you). It's possible he has the bishop's approval, and if he does then he should tell you this. If things do[b] not [/b]get cleared up, then... [color=green]Redemptionis Sacramentum[/color] [i]6. Complaints Regarding Abuses in Liturgical Matters[/i] [183.] In an altogether particular manner, let everyone do all that is in their power to ensure that the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist will be protected from any and every irreverence or distortion and that all abuses be thoroughly corrected. This is a most serious duty incumbent upon each and every one, and all are bound to carry it out without any favoritism. [184.] Any Catholic, whether Priest or Deacon [b]or lay member of Christ's faithful, has the right to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse to the diocesan Bishop or the competent Ordinary equivalent to him in law[/b], or to the Apostolic See on account of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff.290 It is fitting, however, insofar as possible, that the report or complaint be submitted first to the diocesan Bishop. This is naturally to be done in truth and charity. Praying is a necessity, but action is sometimes required. The church tells us we should go to the local bishop before going to Rome. In the same line of thought, I think it's common courtesy to talk to the priest before going to he bishop. FYI... I'm in the beginning stages of putting together some very charitable and respectful, "liturgical abuse flyers" that will be printable from this website. The idea would be to hand them to choir directors, EMCs, and priests after witnessing a liturgical abuse. They would be meant as a friendly "first step" of correcting abuses. [right][snapback]932960[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Yep....what he said....I will post on this thread later today, but as it is, dUSt has it nailed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 [quote name='dUSt' date='Apr 1 2006, 11:35 PM']First, talk to the priest. Ask him about his actions and how they align with church instruction regarding the liturgy (you might want to bring the specific documents with you). It's possible he has the bishop's approval, and if he does then he should tell you this. If things do[b] not [/b]get cleared up, then... [color=green]Redemptionis Sacramentum[/color] [i]6. Complaints Regarding Abuses in Liturgical Matters[/i] [183.] In an altogether particular manner, let everyone do all that is in their power to ensure that the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist will be protected from any and every irreverence or distortion and that all abuses be thoroughly corrected. This is a most serious duty incumbent upon each and every one, and all are bound to carry it out without any favoritism. [184.] Any Catholic, whether Priest or Deacon [b]or lay member of Christ's faithful, has the right to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse to the diocesan Bishop or the competent Ordinary equivalent to him in law[/b], or to the Apostolic See on account of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff.290 It is fitting, however, insofar as possible, that the report or complaint be submitted first to the diocesan Bishop. This is naturally to be done in truth and charity. Praying is a necessity, but action is sometimes required. The church tells us we should go to the local bishop before going to Rome. In the same line of thought, I think it's common courtesy to talk to the priest before going to he bishop. FYI... I'm in the beginning stages of putting together some very charitable and respectful, "liturgical abuse flyers" that will be printable from this website. The idea would be to hand them to choir directors, EMCs, and priests after witnessing a liturgical abuse. They would be meant as a friendly "first step" of correcting abuses. [right][snapback]932960[/snapback][/right] [/quote] There are a great deal of things you can do in all sorts of various situations when you read through the documents. Ultimately, it is quite likely you will be ignored unless it is a very serious abuse (something beyond whining about people not bowing/genuflecting, holding hands, or gathering around the altar). Bishops know about it. They also know they have to pick their battles, especially in the job they are in. Look at the Compendium that just came out. It has all the common prayers in it in Latin. Now why would Benedict do that? The Church works slowly, but it works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick777 Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 1 2006, 09:24 PM']No, you are suppose to pray. Unless you are a bishop or his spiritual director it is not your place to correct a priest. [right][snapback]932923[/snapback][/right] [/quote] What! Dude, Mother Angelica used to talk about this all the time. You need to correct your priest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inDEED Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Apr 1 2006, 10:44 PM']Father: Sam, I would like you to kill this man Sam: No. There is a God in heaven! am i bieng disobedient? [right][snapback]932978[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Dude...Check Adam's post again...and don't play "ignorant"... "Your priest has to answer for the salvation of the souls of his parish and he is facing the fire of hell. Follow your priest and be obedient to him, even if you think he is wrong, unless it leads you into sin." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Apr 1 2006, 11:46 PM']apparently we can not correct priests.....ever its FALSE OBIDIENCE [right][snapback]932983[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Once again, you don't have any idea what you are talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 Some activities we have an obligation to discuss with the priest, or take to the bishop, or papal nuncio. For instance in our diocese a priest was giving general absolution instead on individual confession on a weekly basis. That priest was retired after the bishop learned about this from parishoners and other concerned catholics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 [quote name='dUSt' date='Apr 2 2006, 12:42 AM']Not according to Redemptionus Sacramentum. : [right][snapback]932973[/snapback][/right] [/quote] No need to add the cute smiley.....it is our RIGHT to expect a valid and licit Mass according to the Roman Rite. If we don't get it, we should make the abuses known to the pastor, then the bishop, then if all else fails, the Holy See. It is crystal clear. As my Liturgical mantra has been for a while now: [b]WE HAVE A RIGHT TO THE MASS, BUT WE DO NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO THE MASS THE WAY WE WANT IT.[/b] This goes for abuses to the right and abuses to the left (ie. schismatic v. clown masses). That's right, I just compared a clown Mass and a schismatic Mass. [quote name='Sacrosanctum Concilium #22']1. [u]Regulation of the sacred liturgy depends solely on the authority of the Church[/u], that is, on the Apostolic See and, as laws may determine, on the bishop. 2. In virtue of power conceded by the law, the regulation of the liturgy within certain defined limits belongs also to various kinds of competent territorial bodies of bishops legitimately established. 3. [b]Therefore no other person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in the liturgy on his own authority.[/b][/quote] The regulation first falls on the universal Church, then in a limited way, to the bishop. We don't have to stand by for abuses. dUSt is right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 well of course Dust is right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 [quote name='Cam42' date='Apr 1 2006, 10:54 PM']dUSt is right. [right][snapback]932998[/snapback][/right] [/quote] And it is my right to add a smiley. [no smiley] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 Here is a case in point about what I'm talking about. A lay catechist reads a document on the liturgy and discovers that "gregorian chant should have a pride of place in the liturgy." He also discovers they should not be using some of the instruments that they are using. The catechist has the option of going in, guns blazing, ready to 'charitably' correct the priest. He likely will get no where. Or he can build up the relationship with his priest and other staff members, quietly teaching them about the beauty of the mass and the music used at mass. Allow them to be convinced of what is right. Chances are, in time, there will be change. And in the mean time, those things that really need to be worked on in the parish can take priority number 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 tell ya' what Dust. You write your letter. And as soon as you have a perfect, liturgical abuse free mass by correcting your priest and bishop, please let me know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inDEED Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 ...and I'll add that if the Gregorian Chant is NOT introduced, it's not an "invalid" Mass... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick777 Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 You say he will probably get nowhere but I say he might get somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 1 2006, 10:57 PM']Here is a case in point about what I'm talking about. A lay catechist reads a document on the liturgy and discovers that "gregorian chant should have a pride of place in the liturgy." He also discovers they should not be using some of the instruments that they are using. The catechist has the option of going in, guns blazing, ready to 'charitably' correct the priest. He likely will get no where. Or he can build up the relationship with his priest and other staff members, quietly teaching them about the beauty of the mass and the music used at mass. Allow them to be convinced of what is right. Chances are, in time, there will be change. And in the mean time, those things that really need to be worked on in the parish can take priority number 1. [right][snapback]933004[/snapback][/right] [/quote] But I thought you said it was not your role to correct a priest? What you are advocating here is "long term correction". Let [b]us[/b] not correct the priest at all, as it is the bishop's job. What we [b]can[/b] do is talk to the priest before going to the bishop. No need to tallywack around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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