Help From Cam

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='StThomasMore' date='Apr 1 2006, 11:15 AM']What about this type of religious freedom:

Catholicism is the state religion. Other religions are not allowed to proclaim their religion or worship in public. No one is allowed to say anything in public contrary against what the Church teaches. No Non-Catholic is allowed to be a noble. Would that be the kind of religions freedom the Church approves?
[right][snapback]931439[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

This is exactly what happens in Muslims countries, and the Church condemns that.

[Resurrexi]

I am ignoring cMom's replies...

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Apr 1 2006, 11:18 AM']This is exactly what happens in Muslims countries, and the Church condemns that.
[right][snapback]931446[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


the only difference bieng we are the true church, and moslems are infedels

that seems to be an important detail you missed.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='StThomasMore' date='Apr 1 2006, 11:15 AM']What about this type of religious freedom:

Catholicism is the state religion. Other religions are not allowed to proclaim their religion or worship in public. Noone is allowed to say anything in public contrary against what the Church teaches. No Non-Catholic is allowed to be a noble. Would that be the kind of religions freedom the Church approves?
[right][snapback]931439[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
I will let someone else answer more indepth, however, this situation no longer exists, so that is part of the reason the Church clarified its teaching on Religious freedom. In this day and age, most countries are either democracies or states with religions other than Catholicism. So, the Church needed to remind everyone that in these situations, so that people may come to the Church, they must have to freedom of religion, so that they can choose to be Catholic, rather than being forced to be a Hindu or a Muslim.

Here is what Dignitatis Humanae says about Religious Freedom:

[quote]"1. .... This Vatican Council likewise professes its belief that it is upon the human conscience that these obligations fall and exert their binding force. [b]The truth cannot impose itself except by virtue of its own truth, as it makes its entrance into the mind at once quietly and with power.[/b]

Religious freedom, in turn, which men demand as necessary to fulfill their duty to worship God, [b]has to do with immunity from coercion in civil society. Therefore it leaves untouched traditional Catholic doctrine on the moral duty of men and societies toward the true religion and toward the one Church of Christ.[/b]

Over and above all this, the council intends to develop the doctrine of recent popes on the inviolable rights of the human person and the constitutional order of society.

2. This Vatican Council declares that the human person has a right to religious freedom. [b]This freedom means that all men are to be immune from coercion on the part of individuals or of social groups and of any human power, in such wise that no one is to be forced to act in a manner contrary to his own beliefs, whether privately or publicly, whether alone or in association with others, within due limits[/b]."[/quote]

The last part addresses the fact that too often, States will impose a belief on the people, and make them believe it. An example of this is an Islamic state, where Christians are not allowed to practice their belief.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Apr 1 2006, 11:20 AM']the only difference bieng we are the true church, and moslems are infedels

that seems to be an important detail you missed.
[right][snapback]931455[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
The principle is the same. You cannot force belief on someone.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Apr 1 2006, 11:29 AM']The principle is the same. You cannot force belief on someone.
[right][snapback]931479[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


its not forcing

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Apr 1 2006, 11:30 AM']its not forcing
[right][snapback]931485[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
In an Islamic state? Have you seen the news recently about the Christian convert who was to be executed for converting away from Islam?

[avemaria40]

That would not bring those people into the church and those who did come would do it for the benefits.

[jasJis]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Apr 1 2006, 10:30 AM']its not forcing
[right][snapback]931485[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
Young man. If you keep on with that smart alec attitude, we'll have to take your pokemon cards away.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='Apr 1 2006, 11:31 AM']In an Islamic state? Have you seen the news recently about the Christian convert who was to be executed for converting away from Islam?
[right][snapback]931490[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


stop bieng wrong all the time. i ment in a Traditional Catholic state.

As long as no one is making them convert its fine. but to tolerate them can be wrong in itself becasue it is giving the people the right to spread false lies and lead people from the truth. this is why st. Thomas Aquinas says that the execution of heretics is laudable.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='jasJis' date='Apr 1 2006, 11:33 AM']Young man.  If you keep on with that smart alec attitude, we'll have to take your pokemon cards away.
[right][snapback]931496[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


what are you talking about?

get lost buddy.

[Fidei Defensor]

Also from [i]Dignitatis Humanae[/i]:

[quote]10. It is one of the major tenets of Catholic doctrine that [b]man's response to God in faith must be free:[/b] no one therefore is to be forced to embrace the Christian faith against his own will. This doctrine is contained in the word of God and it was constantly proclaimed by the Fathers of the Church. The act of faith is of its very nature a free act. [b]Man, redeemed by Christ the Savior and through Christ Jesus called to be God's adopted son, cannot give his adherence to God revealing Himself unless, under the drawing of the Father, he offers to God the reasonable and free submission of faith.[/b] It is therefore completely in accord with the nature of faith that in matters religious every manner of coercion on the part of men should be excluded. In consequence, the principle of religious freedom makes no small contribution to the creation of an environment in which [b]men can without hindrance be invited to the Christian faith, embrace it of their own free will, and profess it effectively in their whole manner of life[/b].[/quote]

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Apr 1 2006, 11:35 AM']stop bieng wrong all the time. i ment in a Traditional Catholic state.

As long as no one is making them convert its fine. but to tolerate them can be wrong in itself becasue it is giving the people the right to spread false lies and lead people from the truth. this is why st. Thomas Aquinas says that the execution of heretics is laudable.
[right][snapback]931502[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

So if someone decides to be no longer be catholic you execute them or throw them out of the country?

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Apr 1 2006, 11:37 AM']So if someone decides to be no longer be catholic you execute them or throw them out of the country?
[right][snapback]931510[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


no. if they chose that then its fine. if they try and lead other catholcs astray then we throw them in prison and excute them or banish them. if it is a catholic state heresy is the equivalent of treason.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Apr 1 2006, 11:35 AM']stop bieng wrong all the time. i ment in a Traditional Catholic state.

As long as no one is making them convert its fine. but to tolerate them can be wrong in itself becasue it is giving the people the right to spread false lies and lead people from the truth. this is why st. Thomas Aquinas says that the execution of heretics is laudable.
[right][snapback]931502[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
Can you show me anywhere where there is a Catholic State in which heretics roam and spread lies to the people?

There does not exist one in this day and age (which personally, makes me sad.) Therefore, the Church must address what does exist in this time, which are Islamic states and democracies.