Fidei Defensor Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 This is for any radical traditionalist who thinks they can prove that the second vatican council taught novelties. I am honestly interested to see what they believe. So, have at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted March 29, 2006 Author Share Posted March 29, 2006 By the way, I also forgot to mention that I want actual dialogue, not just copy and paste jobs from websites. If you can, provide a detailed explination as to why you believe something VII taught goes against Catholic teaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 [quote name='fidei defensor' date='Mar 28 2006, 08:17 PM']By the way, I also forgot to mention that I want actual dialogue, not just copy and paste jobs from websites. If you can, provide a detailed explination as to why you believe something VII taught goes against Catholic teaching. [right][snapback]925964[/snapback][/right] [/quote] this sounds like a bad idea. lol why don't you come to Fisheaters and pay us a visit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prose Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 I think it may not happen. Call me crazy, but I think this debate would be ALL about copying and pasting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 [quote name='prose' date='Mar 28 2006, 09:43 PM']I think it may not happen. Call me crazy, but I think this debate would be ALL about copying and pasting. [right][snapback]925997[/snapback][/right] [/quote] [crtl+c]I think it may not happen. Call me crazy, but I think this debate would be ALL about copying and pasting.[/crtl+c] [ quote=prose,Mar 28 2006, 09:43 PM] [crtl+v]I think it may not happen. Call me crazy, but I think this debate would be ALL about copying and pasting.[/crtl+v] [right ][ snapback]925997[ /snapback][ /right] [ /quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prose Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amator Veritatis Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 I am not quite sure what constitutes a radical traditionalist. Perhaps it is merely someone who is not a neo-Catholic. Now that we have gotten the often pointless and contentious labels out of the way, I might proceed in making a few points. Firstly, it is necessary to illustrate what precisely constitutes a teaching of Vatican II. Secondly, it is necessary to understand what precisely constitutes a novelty. The most basic example of the Second Vatican Council teaching a novelty, i.e., a new teaching never before taught by the Church, is in [i]Nostra Aetate[/i]. "True, the Jewish authorities and those who followed their lead pressed for the death of Christ; still, what happened in His passion cannot be charged against all the Jews, without distinction, then alive, nor against the Jews of today. Although the Church is the new people of God, the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, as if this followed from the Holy Scriptures." Cf., [i]Nostra Aetate[/i], Article IV. Now, the most relevant point is made in the statement that "what happened in His passion cannot be charged against all the Jews, without distinction, then alive, nor against the Jews of today." This teaching is a novelty insofar as it was never taught by anyone throughout the entire history of the Church. In fact, the very contrary was taught by every Saint, Church Father or Doctor of the Church who spoke on the matter. The fact that this teaching is a novelty, however, does not necessarily indicate that the Church has erred by teaching false doctrine. The teachings of Vatican II do not hold specific authority as infallible decrees, except where otherwise noted, which Paul VI. himself stated. Wherever the documents contradict Tradition, they must be reconciled to previous teachings. If they cannot be reconciled, which I do not know is necessarily the case for any of them, then they must be subordinated to the Tradition of the Church. The quotation I have listed is probably the statement most difficult of the entire to reconcile with Tradition without simply adding to the actual words of the text by saying that "what happened in His passion cannot be charged [i]solely [/i]against all the Jews, &c." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amator Veritatis Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 As far as illustrating how this teaching is contrary to Tradition, please see the previous debate regarding the Jews, entitled "What to do with Judaism". My response is post number ten on the thread. The link to this thread follows: [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=49126&hl=to+reconcile"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...hl=to+reconcile[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paphnutius Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 I do not mean to stir the pot here, but I do believe that the two major threads here recently that concerned the Jews ended in more or less stalemates. The one that you mentioned, and then the one that I was engaged with. I can look up the link for you if you wish. NB: I am more in line with you on this issue Amator than the other theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 (edited) [url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html"]Nostra Aetate[/url] [url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/relations-jews-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_19820306_jews-judaism_en.html"]Notes on the correct way to present Jews and Judaism in the Roman Catholic Church[/url] [url="http://www.bc.edu/research/cjl/meta-elements/texts/cjrelations/resources/articles/ratzinger.htm"]The Heritage of Abraham[/url] [url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/pcb_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20020212_popolo-ebraico_en.html"]The Jewish People and their Sacred Scriptures in the Christian Bible[/url] Edited March 29, 2006 by Era Might Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 I don't believe this type of discussion is permitted here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 Yepper... we don't debate the mass... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Just Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 (edited) I do wish people would STOP having a field day with the documents of VII. I've seen so many catholic parishes that dont look catholic yet claim to follow the documents of VII. Liberals, modernists and radical traditionalists need to stop this nonsense. GOD does not change, neither does the church because it is one with him. Vatican II wasnt a bad thing, what was bad was the liberal mindset that imposed its garbage on Vatican II. The Church is not of this world, we need to start acting like so. Its not a mere "human institution". Edited March 29, 2006 by MC Just Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paphnutius Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 [quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Mar 29 2006, 06:18 AM']Yepper... we don't debate the mass... [right][snapback]926581[/snapback][/right] [/quote] We are debating the Mass? Also, someone was right about the copy and pasting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 [quote name='MC Just' date='Mar 29 2006, 07:39 AM']I do wish people would STOP having a field day with the documents of VII. I've seen so many catholic parishes that dont look catholic yet claim to follow the documents of VII. Liberals, modernists and radical traditionalists need to stop this nonsense. GOD does not change, neither does the church because it is one with him. Vatican II wasnt a bad thing, what was bad was the liberal mindset that imposed its garbage on Vatican II. The Church is not of this world, we need to start acting like so. Its not a mere "human institution". [right][snapback]926596[/snapback][/right] [/quote] [img]http://pictures.abebooks.com/ADVUNDERGROUND/402632134.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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