toledo_jesus Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 So the French Revolution was the topic in my history class tonight. It was insane! These people not only outlawed the Church and killed tens of thousands, they also [i]renamed [/i]the months! So here's the debate. [b]What would the world be like if the French Revolution had never happened?[/b] Either the peasants got fed, or Louis XVI instituted reforms on his own and didn't lose his head, or brutally murdered the early dissenters...however it went down, we're assuming the French Revolution didn't happen. Where would that put us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 (edited) Who knows? What if St. Peter had never been born? What if Mary had said no? What if Adam had said yes? The French Revolution was not without its fruit, in God's providence. It forced the Church to confront and develop her own theology some years later. [quote]If it is desirable to offer a diagnosis of the text [of Gaudium et Spes] as a whole, we might say that (in conjunction with the texts on religious liberty and world religions) it is a revision of the Syllabus of Pius IX, a kind of counter syllabus. ...The one-sidedness of the position adopted by the Church under Pius IX and Pius X in response to the situation created by the new phase of history inaugurated by the French Revolution was, to a large extent, corrected via facti, especially in Central Europe, but there was still no basic statement of the relationship that should exist between the Church and the world that had come into existence after 1789. --Pope Benedict XVI[/quote] In his last book, John Paul also spoke of "the fruits of the Englightenment". Edited March 28, 2006 by Era Might Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toledo_jesus Posted March 28, 2006 Author Share Posted March 28, 2006 [quote name='Era Might' date='Mar 27 2006, 10:02 PM']Who knows? What if St. Peter had never been born? What if Mary had said no? What if Adam had said yes? The French Revolution was not without its fruit, in God's providence. It forced the Church to confront and develop her own theology some years later. [right][snapback]924363[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Ok, so that's the point! I didn't ask what rhetorical questions might have arisen or what good came of it. Let's practice some creative history. knowing what we know about today's situation, how different would it be if we removed the French Revolution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 Vatican II may have never happened. The relationship between Catholics and Protestants perhaps would have been perpetually acrimonius, with no pluralism in a nation like America. Then again, a lot of that had to do with technology (whereas in the old days, everyone was isolated in their own land). There may have never been a Vatican I, if the Church did not feel the need to assert the authority of the Pope in the face of a relativistic, non-Catholic society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toledo_jesus Posted March 28, 2006 Author Share Posted March 28, 2006 [quote name='Era Might' date='Mar 27 2006, 10:11 PM']Vatican II may have never happened. The relationship between Catholics and Protestants perhaps would have been perpetually acrimonius, with no pluralism in a nation like America. Then again, a lot of that had to do with technology (whereas in the old days, everyone was isolated in their own land). There may have never been a Vatican I, if the Church did not feel the need to assert the authority of the Pope in the face of a relativistic, non-Catholic society. [right][snapback]924380[/snapback][/right] [/quote] good good. keep going! what would that mean in our practical day to day lives? How weird would it be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 hmmmm. Well, I guess it would depend. Even if there were no actual French revolution, the principles behind that revolution found their way to America, and THAT revolution probably would have gone forward. Perhaps European Catholics would still be living in monarchies, while America would have progressed as it has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jezic Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 my spiritual director has told me that it is not good to dwell on the things of the past and the what ifs. Live for the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toledo_jesus Posted March 28, 2006 Author Share Posted March 28, 2006 [quote name='Era Might' date='Mar 27 2006, 10:15 PM']hmmmm. Well, I guess it would depend. Even if there were no actual French revolution, the principles behind that revolution found their way to America, and THAT revolution probably would have gone forward. Perhaps European Catholics would still be living in monarchies, while America would have progressed as it has. [right][snapback]924386[/snapback][/right] [/quote] to a point I agree with you. I think America would have expanded across the continent, cause we were already doing that. But I'm not sure that monarchies would still be en vogue in Europe. I imagine something would have to give regarding the condition of the peasantry. And let's not forget that Napoleon would have remained a border soldier, never rising to prominence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toledo_jesus Posted March 28, 2006 Author Share Posted March 28, 2006 [quote name='jezic' date='Mar 27 2006, 10:28 PM']my spiritual director has told me that it is not good to dwell on the things of the past and the what ifs. Live for the day. [right][snapback]924406[/snapback][/right] [/quote] it's like the What If comics from Marvel. What if Wolverine never got his adamantium? What if Cyclops could control his eye beams? What if Spider-Man was a girl? What if the French Revolution never happened? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King's Rook's Pawn Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 The French Revolution, having grown out of the secular humanism of the Enlightenment was terribly anti-Catholic and extremely radical. They felt they were breaking France free of the oppressive shackles of a dark and ignorant past and marching into the glorious future, constructing a society based on their idol, Reason. Of course, while they practically worshipped "Reason" with a capital "R", their obsession with it clearly blinded them to reason with a small "r". In addition to changing the months around, the also changed the number of days in the week to ten and invented an entirely new measuring system: the metric system, of course. These stark, symmetrical systems were, of course, more "Reasonable" and "scientific" then the blurrier, non-base 10 systems that had evolved over the millennia. The French Revolution was a watershed moment in the secularization of the West. In that sense, it's right up the in importance with the Protestant Reformation and World War I. It is, of course, concievable that, through goodness knows what convulated series of events, the world would have been worse off then it is today had the French Revolution not happened. However, it is clear that it's intent was intrinsically anti-Catholic, as were it's direct effects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 (edited) [quote name='King's Rook's Pawn' date='Mar 27 2006, 10:52 PM']It is, of course, concievable that, through goodness knows what convulated series of events, the world would have been worse off then it is today had the French Revolution not happened. However, it is clear that it's intent was intrinsically anti-Catholic, as were it's direct effects. [right][snapback]924453[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I agree. And an interesting "what if" is technology. I know secularists like to imagine they freed the world from scientific barbarism, but most of the famous scientists were Christian (Copernicus, Bacon, Kepler, Galileo, etc). Would we still be where we are today scientifically if the world was Christian? Edited March 28, 2006 by Era Might Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God Conquers Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 [quote name='Era Might' date='Mar 27 2006, 08:15 PM']hmmmm. Well, I guess it would depend. Even if there were no actual French revolution, the principles behind that revolution found their way to America, and THAT revolution probably would have gone forward. Perhaps European Catholics would still be living in monarchies, while America would have progressed as it has. [right][snapback]924386[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Actually... It was the American Revolution which influenced the French... not the other way around. France possibly could be in better shape now... the faith would be in better shape there FOR SURE. However, economically it was falling apart, there was corruption up the wazoo and dissent on almost every level. Europe would certainly be a VERY different place. Germany would likely be split in two, and the Papal States would probably still exist. There would likely be much more animosity btw protestants and Catholics and much more localized communities, instead of the pluralism we see today. There would be 1000s more priests and nuns and therefore 1000s more lives of prayer (however, these were martyred so we would lose that terrific grace). It would certainly be a different place. If only the aristiocrats, court officials and bishops had been more reasonable, I believe the revolution would have turned out ok. However, the secular middle class got ahold of things and things went to pot from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 [quote name='God Conquers' date='Mar 27 2006, 11:38 PM']Actually... It was the American Revolution which influenced the French... not the other way around. [right][snapback]924555[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Yah, you're right. I was off on the years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God Conquers Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 No problem... common mistake among us Euro-minded people... Not commonly made by Americans themselves! And I'm a historian so a stickler for timelines... I don't really care about dates, but order is another thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 [quote]atican II may have never happened. The relationship between Catholics and Protestants perhaps would have been perpetually acrimonius, with no pluralism in a nation like America. Then again, a lot of that had to do with technology (whereas in the old days, everyone was isolated in their own land).[/quote] If Vatican II had never happened, I would be happy as a saint in heaven! [quote]hmmmm. Well, I guess it would depend. Even if there were no actual French revolution, the principles behind that revolution found their way to America, and THAT revolution probably would have gone forward. Perhaps European Catholics would still be living in monarchies, while America would have progressed as it has.[/quote] The world would be better if European Catholics were living in Catholic Monarchies. I would move to Europe if it were like that, because the athiestic to let the midwest be part of the French empire. [quote]The French Revolution was not without its fruit, in God's providence. It forced the Church to confront and develop her own theology some years later.[/quote] the French Revolution was without fruit, for it was started by the followers of Satan, the Freemasons. [quote]In his last book, John Paul also spoke of "the fruits of the Englightenment".[/quote] The French revolution was evil, and nothing good came of it. [quote]France possibly could be in better shape now... the faith would be in better shape there FOR SURE.[/quote] SOOO true! [quote]It would certainly be a different place. If only the aristiocrats, court officials and bishops had been more reasonable, I believe the revolution would have turned out ok. However, the secular middle class got ahold of things and things went to pot from there. [/quote] THe aristos and the Ecclesiastical authoriteis were not unreasonable, they were simply doing what they had done for hundreds of years. May the Monarchy Be Restored!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! St. Louis IX, King of France, pray for the restoration of the monarchy to thy land. Amen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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