Protestant "fathers"

[jswranch]

[quote name='Cow of Shame' date='Mar 28 2006, 08:45 AM']I think if you see the Lord of Lies while you're on the crapper, you're straining too hard.
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LOL you need help



As for book recommendations, I found the Westminster Confession and 39 Articles helpful for understanding the foundings of Protestantism. Also, Westminster and 39 articles serve as an excellent start for discussing church history.

[Snarf]

Luther's [i]De Servo Arbitrio[/i]. Reading it invariably makes you amazed that anyone took him seriously.

[sweetpea316]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 28 2006, 05:37 AM']I see a use in it. :waves:

Else, I would not be receiving the sacraments if it wasn't for the learned Catholic men and women who helped me along.
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Likewise! I'm almost there too. :

[dspen2005]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 27 2006, 02:34 PM']You do huh? Okay then. We study the writings of those who disagree with us so we really actually do know what they believe, because others do believe in Protestant doctrines. If you have no command of their faith, they will run circles around you. By studying what they believe, what their arguments are, and knowing what the Catholic faith teaches in response to it, you will be educated enough to be respected. I'm not talking about internet apologetics, I'm speaking on a more professional level. If you want to convince the president of Planned Parenthood abortion is wrong, you're not going to accomplish it by telling him you are Catholic and you think it is wrong. You have to know his position better than he does.

that's the key. If you walk into a room full of Calvinists and know what Calvin teaches, you will gain more respect than if you don't know anything about Calvin. They will be much more likely to feel the need to educate you rather than to hear you out.
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i never said that i would simply say "i'm Catholic and you are wrong" in response to their arguments. I think that you are construing something that is not in anything that I said. I do not need to read some Protestant publication in order to have a discussion with a Prot. By knowing my Faith and I can reasonably and coherently have a discussion with them, can't I? if not, why not?

[Neal4Christ]

[quote name='Peccator' date='Mar 27 2006, 11:05 PM']I can only really speak form myself...

I honesty do not own any more Protestant books...I've never been able to argue a Protestant into conversion(or even into merely considering my point), so I see no use in it.

I am able to defend my Church apologetics wise though...
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I was a Protestant argued into conversion. :

[photosynthesis]

I'd try to be familiar with the writings of Ulrich Zwingli, since I think he was one of the first Reformers to deny the Real Presence of the Eucharist... Luther believed in the Real Presence. I'd also read "The Fundamentals"

[quote name='Thumper' date='Mar 27 2006, 05:06 PM']Luther's "On Christian Liberty," a.k.a. "The Freedom of a Christian."
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I read this one for my history class in college, and it was one of the things that brought me into the Catholic Church, because I realized that I agreed with Catholics more than this guy.

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 28 2006, 07:36 AM']Luther did write about throwing his own feces at satan.
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was he a monkey?

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='dspen2005' date='Mar 28 2006, 02:43 PM']i never said that i would simply say "i'm Catholic and you are wrong" in response to their arguments.  I think that you are construing something that is not in anything that I said.  I do not need to read some Protestant publication in order to have a discussion with a Prot.  By knowing my Faith and I can reasonably and coherently have a discussion with them, can't I?  if not, why not?
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I think that is the problem. You insisted that no one should ever read any of Protestant writings if they are going to have ecumenical discussions with Protestants. That's like saying "We are going to discuss diplomatic relations with China" and no nothing about Communionism.

You can have a reasonable discussion about your own Catholic faith with a Protestant if you know your Catholic faith, but no, I do not believe you can have a reasonable discussion with a Protestant if you know nothing about the Protestant faith. Protestants are not, generally, ignorant, and many have constructed vast systems of theology that 'make sense'. If you don't know where the weaknesses are, it does little good in the discussion. That's why I am seeking out other primary texts. I know Lutheranism really well, as well as fundamentalists. Now I'm interested in learning about Calvinists and a few other groups.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Mar 28 2006, 02:50 PM']I'd try to be familiar with the writings of Ulrich Zwingli.
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hehehe. He's a nut. I like him. :

Sorry. Actually when people bring him up I know its going to be a good time. He is so easy to debunk. The other Protestant fathers did not like him.

[photosynthesis]

I get so frustrated when talking about theology with Protestants who've never read ANYTHING from the Catechism, any church documents, or any books written by Catholics, except maybe the New Testament, if they've even gotten through that. It is so annoying to me when all a Protestant knows of the Catholic Church only comes from the likes of anti-Catholic pastors and writers. And these people are the easiest for me to brush aside, saying "You obviously know nothing of the Catholic faith, so why should I take you seriously?" I tend to only pay attention to Protestants who are honestly seeking to know more about the Catholic Church from Catholics.

It follows then, that if I want Protestants to take me seriously, I should know about the foundations of their beliefs from the reformers themselves.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='dspen2005' date='Mar 27 2006, 01:24 PM']yes i do... it is to bring those outside of the Catholic Fullness into it...
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Amen

[dspen2005]

we, as Catholics should know where the weaknesses are in Prot theology without having a detailed understanding. Prots begin with a false anthropology, for example, and if we can discuss that issue, alone, many of the weakness will flesh themselves out.... you have your style and I have mine.... i suppose we can leave it at that, Brother

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Brother Adam, I am very impressed with your tone on this discussion.

Dspen, I am sad by your tone in this talk.

The issue with protestant ecumenism is that we are basically telling them to abandon the faith that they have, the saving faith they have in christ and borg themselves. This is naive and not in the spirit of Ut Unum Sint. What we need to do is have an understanding of the processes of their faith and show them how the catholic church is the fulfillment of that faith. It is the progression of it. Anytime I bring up ecumenism dialogue this issue needs to be understood. Well edcucated protestants will not abandon the faith that they have. Lil shock messages will only get the uneducated sheep that didnt bother understanding their faith and will just provide the same for us. I am a semister away from an undergrad in theology at a very well respected protestant bible college. The whole idea of "their theology is flawed, and weak and not worth knowing" is an insult to your ability to understand our seperated brothers in the spirit we are called to do.

Brother Adam, as a fellow convert-revert (from a baptist background non the less) I would do anything I can to help you with this. I have an extensive library with this purpose in mind.

Anything from Karl Barth is a good start for systematition type of theology. It is pseudo calvinist to say the least, but it will help

Letters from a skeptic by Dr. Greg Boyd is a good evangelical overview. It is basic, but the point of evangelical theology is that anyone can share the simplistics of it. I have a long personal relationship with Boyd. So i can credit this book.
For pneumatolgy he writes very good books, just do a search for him.

JP Moreland is a good writer.

CS lewis mere christianty is the main guy protestants will site for their book.

Alot of protestant theology is developed by reading other theologians and filtering it thru their own reasoning and understanding of scripture. Almost a development from the negative.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

why would you read protestant books?

Just throw them into the fire where they belong.

this is from the catechism of Pius X:

32 Q: What should a Christian do who has been given a Bible by a Protestant or by an agent of the Protestants?

A: A Christian to whom a Bible has been offered by a Protestant or an agent of the Protestants should reject it with disgust, because it is forbidden by the Church. If it was accepted by inadvertence, it must be burnt as soon as possible or handed in to the Parish Priest.

33 Q: Why does the Church forbid Protestant Bibles?

A: The Church forbids Protestant Bibles because, either they have been altered and contain errors, or not having her approbation and footnotes explaining the obscure meanings, they may be harmful to the Faith. It is for that same reason that the Church even forbids translations of the Holy Scriptures already approved by her which have been reprinted without the footnotes approved by her.

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[quote][i]one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers. All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."[/i][/quote]

And that one statement allows us to dialog. Without that, we are
reduced to what we have been doing for 500 years - trying to
evangelize the other.

[quote]..."Christ calls all his disciples to unity"

Our desire should be to renew this call today. The courageous witness of so many martyrs of our century give vigor to the call for unity and reminds us of our duty to listen to and put into practice this calling. These Brothers and sisters or ours, united in the selfless offering of their lives for the Kingdom of God, are the most powerful proff that every factor of division can be transcended and overcome in the total gift of self for the sake of the gospel.believers united in following in the footsteps of the martyrs cannot remain divided. If they wish truly and effectively to oppose the world's tendency to reduce to powerlessness the mystery of redemption, they must profess together the same truth about the cross. The anti-christian outlook seeks to minimize the cross, to empty it of its meaning, and to deny that in it man has the source of his new life. It claims that the cross is unable to provide either hope or vision. Man, it says, is nothing but an earthly being, who must live as if God does not exist. No one is unaware of the challenge which all this poses to believers. they cannot fail to meet this challenge, indeed how could
they refuse to do everything possible, with God's help to break downthe walls of division and distrust, to overcome obstacles and prejudices which thwartthe proclaimation of the Gospel of salvation in the cross of Jesus, the one redeemer of man, of every individual? I thank the lord that he has led us to make progress along the path of unity and communion between Christians, a path difficult but so full of joy. Interconfessional dialogues at the theological level have produced positive and tangible results: this encourages us to move forward. Never the less, besides the doctrinal differences needing to be resolved, christians cannot underestimate thew burden of long-standing misgivings inherited from the past, and of mutual misunderstandings and prejudices. complacncy, indifference and insufficient knowledge of one another often make this situation worse. Consequently, the commitment to ecumenism must be based upon the conversion of hearts and upon prayer, which will lead to the necessary purification of past memories. With the grace of the holy spirit, the lord's disciples, inspired by love, by the power of the
truth and by a sincere desire for mutual forgiveness and reconciliation, are called to re-examine together their painful past and the hurt which that past regrettably continues to provoke even today. All together, they are invited by the ever fresh power of the gospel to acknowledge with sincere and total objectivity the mistakes made and the contingent factors at work at the origins of their deplorable divisions. what is needed is a clam, clearsightful and truthful vision of things, a vision enlivened by divine mercy and capable of freeing people's minds and of inspiring in everyone a renewed willingness, precisely with a view to proclaiming the gospel to the men and women of
every tribe and nation

-Ut Unum Sint, 1-2[/quote]

[jswranch]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Mar 28 2006, 01:50 PM']was he [Luther the Poo flinger] a monkey?
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Allow me to put a plug in again for "Triumph:..." by HW Crocker III. He goes to lengths to cite Luther's writtings on this topic. He also quotes Luther's discreet endorsement of polygamy. Crocker writes how Luther claimed the idea of Sola Fide came to him while he was in the tower on the privy and hit him like a thuner bolt.