jasJis Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 (edited) There is a difference between giving aid to an illegal in order to assist them in maintaining their illegal status, and giving aid to an illegal with no political agenda and helping them break the cycle of exploitation and gaining legitimate status in the US. Mahoney is ignorantly playing politics and is not really interested in a cure. He'd rather treat a symptom and doesn't care about a cure. Again, I don't really care what the Catholic Church says, it doesn't follow it's own 'rules' anyway. But since you claim to care what the Church says, give a little attention to more of what it says. Can you say 'context'? [quote]2237 Political authorities are obliged to respect the fundamental rights of the human person. They will dispense justice humanely by respecting the rights of everyone, especially of families and the disadvantaged. The political rights attached to citizenship can and should be granted according to the requirements of the common good. They cannot be suspended by public authorities without legitimate and proportionate reasons. Political rights are meant to be exercised for the common good of the nation and the human community. The duties of citizens 2238 Those subject to authority should regard those in authority as representatives of God, who has made them stewards of his gifts:43 "Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution. . . . Live as free men, yet without using your freedom as a pretext for evil; but live as servants of God."44 Their loyal collaboration includes the right, and at times the duty, to voice their just criticisms of that which seems harmful to the dignity of persons and to the good of the community. 2239 It is the duty of citizens to contribute along with the civil authorities to the good of society in a spirit of truth, justice, solidarity, and freedom. The love and service of one's country follow from the duty of gratitude and belong to the order of charity. Submission to legitimate authorities and service of the common good require citizens to fulfill their roles in the life of the political community. 2240 Submission to authority and co-responsibility for the common good make it morally obligatory to pay taxes, to exercise the right to vote, and to defend one's country: Pay to all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.45 [Christians] reside in their own nations, but as resident aliens. They participate in all things as citizens and endure all things as foreigners. . . . They obey the established laws and their way of life surpasses the laws. . . . So noble is the position to which God has assigned them that they are not allowed to desert it.46 The Apostle exhorts us to offer prayers and thanksgiving for kings and all who exercise authority, "that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way."47 2241 The more prosperous nations are obliged, to the extent they are able, to welcome the foreigner in search of the security and the means of livelihood which he cannot find in his country of origin. Public authorities should see to it that the natural right is respected that places a guest under the protection of those who receive him. Political authorities, for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible, may make the exercise of the right to immigrate subject to various juridical conditions, especially with regard to the immigrants' duties toward their country of adoption. Immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the country that receives them, to obey its laws and to assist in carrying civic burdens. 2242 The citizen is obliged in conscience not to follow the directives of civil authorities when they are contrary to the demands of the moral order, to the fundamental rights of persons or the teachings of the Gospel. Refusing obedience to civil authorities, when their demands are contrary to those of an upright conscience, finds its justification in the distinction between serving God and serving the political community. "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."48 "We must obey God rather than men":49 When citizens are under the oppression of a public authority which oversteps its competence, they should still not refuse to give or to do what is objectively demanded of them by the common good; but it is legitimate for them to defend their own rights and those of their fellow citizens against the abuse of this authority within the limits of the natural law and the Law of the Gospel.50 2243 Armed resistance to oppression by political authority is not legitimate, unless all the following conditions are met: 1) there is certain, grave, and prolonged violation of fundamental rights; 2) all other means of redress have been exhausted; 3) such resistance will not provoke worse disorders; 4) there is well-founded hope of success; and 5) it is impossible reasonably to foresee any better solution.[/quote] Edited March 28, 2006 by jasJis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 [quote]There is a difference between giving aid to an illegal in order to assist them is maintaining their illegal status, and giving aid to an illegal with no political agenda and helping them break the cycle of exploitation and gaining legitimate status in the us.[/quote] Yes there is and the problem with the bill is that it does not draw any distinction between the two. Also please feel free to reference my earlier posts that state the Church's position on justice and the poor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 (edited) [quote name='hot stuff' date='Mar 28 2006, 07:37 AM']and the problem with the bill is that it does not draw any distinction between the two. [right][snapback]924850[/snapback][/right] [/quote] The problem is you are too lazy to read the bill. The link was provided and Ironmonk provided the excerpt. [quote]`(a) Criminal Offenses and Penalties- `(1) PROHIBITED ACTIVITIES- Except as provided in paragraph (3), a person shall be punished as provided under paragraph (2), if the person-- `(A) facilitates, encourages, directs, or induces a person to come to or enter the United States, or to cross the border to the United States, [b]knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such person is an alien who lacks lawful authority to come to, enter, or cross the border to the United States;[/b] `(B) facilitates, encourages, directs, or induces a person to come to or enter the United States, or to cross the border to the United States, at a place other than a designated port of entry or place other than as designated by the Secretary of Homeland Security, [b]knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such person is an alien and regardless of whether such alien has official permission or lawful authority to be in the United States;[/b] `© transports, moves, harbors, conceals, or shields from detection a person outside of the United States knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such person is an alien in unlawful transit from 1 country to another or on the high seas, [b]under circumstances in which the alien is seeking to enter the United States without official permission or legal authority;[/b] `(D) encourages or induces a person to reside or remain in the United States, [b]knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such person is an alien who lacks lawful authority to reside in or remain in the United States;[/b] `(E) transports or moves a person in the United States, knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such person is an alien who lacks lawful authority to enter or be in the United States,[b] if the transportation or movement will further the alien's illegal entry into or illegal presence in the United States;[/b] `(F) harbors, conceals, or shields from detection a person in the United States, [b]knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such person is an alien who lacks lawful authority to be in the United States; or[/b] `(G) conspires or attempts to commit any of the acts described in subparagraphs (A) through (F)."[/quote] Edited March 28, 2006 by jasJis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 [quote name='jasJis' date='Mar 28 2006, 08:57 AM']The problem is you are too lazy to read the bill. The link was provided and Ironmonk provided the excerpt. [right][snapback]924875[/snapback][/right] [/quote] The real problem is that you don't have the comprehension to see who actually quoted the bill. Ironmonk quoted the wrong one Also you don't seem to understand English. What exactly do you think reckless disregard means? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelofJesus Posted March 28, 2006 Author Share Posted March 28, 2006 [quote name='jasJis' date='Mar 28 2006, 03:23 AM']It doesn't matter if opposing the bill is technically Catholic or not. IM presented a legitmate Catholic perspective that did not agree with you. The Catholic Church also fostered homosexuality in priests, protected molesters, and let priests leave the country to avoid prosecution. Not exactly a stellar record in practicing morality in the real world, even though it was morally nice to claim to have forgiven the priest and helped him seek treatment... 1. Then get your wife to introduce to to a few illegals and get to know them. The only way to break the cycle of being trapped in slave conditions is to force them to come to the US as legals. We have the jobs for them. The system needs to change where they are recognized and protected by the Government and that means they have to recognize and obey the Gov. 2. Catholic charities should probably follow ALL the Catholic rusles which include respecting the legitimate immigration laws of the US. It is easier to immigrate here than any other major country. 3. Flat out, you have no clue. I've done harder work for less than $10 an hour within the last few years. Some of my current employees work harder for less. You are incredibly naive and arrogant and seperated from reality to claim that it will take a unionized work force and $30 an hour. That's incredibly stupid and I'm shocked to think that came from someone old enough to be married. $10 an hour goes alot further when you are here legally and don't have to live in a camp, be driven to work by the farmer, are not afraid to report crimes, are not afraid to go to a hospital, are not afraid to seek social services. Providing decent worker pay and benefits is a cost of processing food. If it makes tomatoes $10 each, then that's what a tomato costs. The US must eliminate the pool of illegal or 'second-class' labor. If a Mexican can pick squash, so can an American citizen. There should be no difference in the way they are treated. [right][snapback]924779[/snapback][/right] [/quote] 1. You dont get it. I am surrounded by illegal immigrants. The godparents of my children are illegal immigrants. If there is a single possible way of coming here legally, they would do it. Tell me one possible way for them to come here legally. ONE! 2. Again, catholic charities are just following Jesus' example. What is so hard to understand? 3. I am shocked to see that you're church militant and non-catholic. What an oxymoron. Have you ever picked tomatoes? How do you know it's easy. Your more naive than I am if you think picking vegetables in acres and acres of land is easy. Come on ask me if I have ever worked as a tomato picker. Ask me if I can still stand straight without straining my back. YOU DONT KNOW ME LITTLE MAN. If you can call people you dont even know stupid, insult them and not know anything about them, what does that say about you? Furthermore, I am for legal immigrants and americans working as vegetable pickers and for working conditions to improve. But not helping people in need is not the way to do it. Even if i was not catholic, I would still help illegals with their basic needs just because they are human beings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mariahLVzJP2 Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 (edited) jasjis all im reading from you is ignorance, your not only bashing undocumented immigrants youre bashing the Church as well. you have no idea what its like to be an undocumented immigrant; they are the hardest workers i've seen. when was the last time you saw one holding up a sign asking for money on the streets? i've seen them selling oranges and flowers near the freeways, but they're working! they will do jobs im sure non of us would ever do. God will judge us for the good we do to our neighbor because what we do to them we do to Him. Edited March 28, 2006 by mariahLVzJP2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 It must be the rule here at phatmass for people to 'claim' they read posts, but don't. mariah, I see illegal immigrants every day. I've worked for them. (Yes, I did work FOR illegal immigrants and they paid me so I can buy groceries for my family.) When was the last time YOU did that? When was the last time YOU brought food to them? When was the last time THEY helped you out? When was the last time YOU gave them a job or really helped them. If you read my posts, you would not be so ignorant because I've done that. I also have listed job opportunities with St. Vincent De Paul, the Diocese, Katrina Relief, and unemployment and have MANY people refuse the job because it's 'beneath' them. Let's see, $10 an hour, free health insurance, vacation, paid holidays, bonuses, training and room for advancement. Man, it must be great to be able to live off of handouts and welfare and pass that up. So why wouldn't you do you think they would do jobs YOU would never do? Speak for yourself, you don't know what I would do to feed myself and my family. Are you royalty or something? Are you a superior class of people who would never dig a ditch, shovel cow manure, pump sewage, or pick tomatoes? AoJ, I've picked strawberries and shoveld asphalt here in FL. What my guys do now is tougher than picking tomatoes. I know because we can compare what we do now with those jobs. I've got employees that were migrant workers. I've hired legal migrants as well. Hence my justification in calling you stupid to think it takes $30 and hour and a union to get people to do tough jobs. You can call me Little Man once to my face, but you're welcome to call me stupid as long as I blabber stupidity. hot stuff, Reckless disregard means having no regard for the right of the government to regulate immigrants. The right of the immigrant must also balance with the right of the government and it's citizens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 [quote]Reckless disregard means having no regard for the right of the government to regulate immigrants. The right of the immigrant must also balance with the right of the government and it's citizens. [/quote] Nice try sport Reckless disregard refers to whether or not a person or organization cares about the status of the individual they are aiding or actively seeks to find that out. Seriously embarrassing. But keep on digging the hole. The more you do, the more the rest of the board sees what you really believe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 [quote] but you're welcome to call me stupid as long as I blabber stupidity.[/quote] we need a "biting tongue" smiley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilroy the Ninja Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 I believe this thread has run its course - too long. Due to a preponderance of rudeness, I'm closing this thread. God Bless! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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