Jaime Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 [quote name='ironmonk' date='Mar 27 2006, 08:27 PM']My friend... Farmers don't have to pay minimum wage. The fields are full of illegal aliens working for $0.02 per ton of tomatos... they are lucky to make $100 working six days from dawn til dusk. Many are held at gunpoint... because farmers pay for them to be shipped here. Also, they can't take breaks... well, they can take a break, but then they'll loose their row of veggies to pick to someone else who needs to work... they get paid by the ton... not the pound, not the hour... the ton. Women and children in the fields, entire familys picking tomatos all day long... no school... no breaks... They live in condemned trailers that farmers can pick up for a few hundred dollars... God Bless and thanks for your input. For the others... I just went through the bill again... harbors, conceals, or shields = harbors or conceals or shields and the whopping key term: "From detection".... Soup kitchens can feed whoever comes through the door and it is not harboring, concealing, or shielding them from detection. Giving someone a sandwich or a bottle of water is not illegal according to the bill. illegal aliens are treated like dirt by people because illegals think that they cannot go to the police. Murder, Rape, etc... all done by legals to illegals. Many children get rapped. But now, let's not forget about the poor Asians that get shipped over here in cargo ships. Slave trade is big... Where do you think all these Asian and Mexican young beautiful prostitutes come from that are all over the big cities and flooded Nevada???? Slaves from other countries. How do they get here, illegally. Want to protect them, then go after employers of them... This bill also has a lot of verbiage about inhuman transfers. It seems to target the employers more than anyone else. Imagine for a minute if you lived In Mexico and China. You have a beatiful young daughter that dreams of coming to America. Someone approaches her and looks legit... shows up at your house and gives you all of these brochures telling you that they can get your daughter to America for school and a great career for $3000 to smuggle her across the border.... You scrape the money together through loans and family... you send your daughter... Oh but wait... she's not going to school. She's going to America or somewhere like Holland, to be a sex slave that they will get hooked on crack, and make her "earn" her freedom, but she'll also have to buy the drugs from them that they got her hooked on, she'll work in a brothel until she doesn't sell anymore and then either killed or thrown on the streets. God Bless, ironmonk [right][snapback]924313[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Uh huh I've read the bill. And it still says that charitable organizations can be charged with a felony for aiding an illegal immigrant. address my objection to the bill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 If you would like to learn more about the tomatoe pickers plight go to this site... [url="http://www.ciw-online.org/"]http://www.ciw-online.org/[/url] [url="http://www.ciw-online.org/slavery.html"]http://www.ciw-online.org/slavery.html[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 Unless of course you are suggesting that Cardinal Mahoney is pro sex slave trade... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 I'll take it from your silence that this is your intent To infer something so insidious about the good cardinal. Shameful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 I was just thinking and looking at some of the protest pictures.... It's obvious that they don't want to be here, they're waiving mexican flags, so let's give them what they want and send them home. These are criminals protesting the laws. As for Cardinal Mahoney, I do not trust his judgement or his Catholicity. Cardinal Mahoney is Corrected by the Holy See [url="http://www.unavoce.org/cdlmahht.htm"]http://www.unavoce.org/cdlmahht.htm[/url] Cardinal Mahony’s Cathedral Guards Remove and Threaten Pro-life Youth During Honours for Pro-abort Mayor [url="http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2005/jul/05070502.html"]http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2005/jul/05070502.html[/url] "Cardinal Mahoney received a warmly appreciative note from the anti-Catholic homosexual activist group, the Rainbow Sash Movement, who praised him for his support for their cause." The above is unacceptable.... and shows the dragon's tail. The bill does not make it illegal to provide food, medicine, clothing, and other vital necessities. Mahony is wrong. As he is wrong with allowing abortionists speak at a Cathedral, as he is for supporting the rainbow sash movement, and as he was about the Latin Mass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 (edited) Clearly the legal language of the bill is too complex for your comprehension Ironmonk. Mahoney is not wrong about his understanding. Any aid given to an illegal alien can be seen as abetting and supporting illegal activities. Feeding those in need is not wrong and is required by the Church through the Catechesism, Encyclicals and the Magisterium. Please educate yourself about the Catholic faith. I can post more so that you can learn about it, Edited March 28, 2006 by jaime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jiyoung Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 Cardinal Mahony might be wrong about abortion, and a number of other things, but he's not here. The man's got his faults, but he's dead on about this issue. I really think that instead of a bill like this, the system itself needs to be improved. You can't treat them all like criminals--perhaps some of them, or maybe even a lot of them are drug dealers, but that's making one huge sweeping assumption about them. They're not all necessarily here for bad reasons. Like people before me have said, some are here seeking asylum, and a lot of them are trying to create a better living condition for their families, to get them out of the ghettos. Not to "live like kings," though I'm sure there are some who do that, but to feed and clothe their children, and be able to send them to school instead of having them work with them in the tomato fields, or whatever. To provide a future for their children, and a better present for them as well. I think illegals going back and "living like kings" is the exception and not the rule. It's more important to better the legal ways that people can enter the US, so they can be better monitored (since I know illegal immigration is also a concern for terrorism), and since they're here legally they don't have to be subjected to these inhumane working conditions, and--I don't know if people with temporary visas pay taxes, but if they do, then instead of costing the government more money, the government can charge them taxes (maybe a little less than residents or something?). I don't think punishing those who help the people who are already here will help solve the problem at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 The mission is not just a food service. The other local Catholic church supplies all the food to the local food bank that supplies all the food to another two dozen organizations that give out food. I guess you people don't really know what it is to be an illegal migrant worker. Most of these people don't want a free meal, they want the opportunity to earn their meals. It's counter productive to encourge and foster a system where people are exploited with no legal recourse or hope, but it's better than living in Mexico or Guatemala. I personally don't give a rat bowel movement if that's properly "Catholic" or not because encouraging more illegal workers is incredibly short sighted and naive and is exploiting their suffering for political gain. I'm sure Mahooney is getting some political leverage out of this. Maybe more $$ in donations from Mexican illegals to add on to the Cathedral. Maybe a little leniency from a Hispanic investigator checking on some molestor priest. Maybe he just thinks it's good publicity for Catholics for a change. It's akin to passing legislature to make slave ships seaworthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 [quote name='hot stuff' date='Mar 27 2006, 07:35 PM']Unless of course you are suggesting that Cardinal Mahoney is pro sex slave trade... [right][snapback]924328[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Unfortunately, Given Mahoney's track record on other moral issues, that wouldn't surprise me a bit . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 [quote name='Socrates' date='Mar 27 2006, 10:22 PM']Unfortunately, Given Mahoney's track record on other moral issues, that wouldn't surprise me a bit . . . [right][snapback]924520[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Suggesting that Cardinal Mahoney supports sex trafficking is deplorable. Also neither you, Ironmonk, nor Jas has offered anything that suggests that this bill is in line with Catholic teaching. Or is conservative republicanism more important to you than Catholicism? Given your track record on other issues, that wouldn't surprise me a bit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelofJesus Posted March 28, 2006 Author Share Posted March 28, 2006 To Ironmonk, Jasjis and Socrates, 1. Yes, the bill makes it harder for illegals to stay here. People in other countries will have to think long and hard before they come here. 2. It levies stiff penalties against individuals and organizations that help these illegals. Business and organization will have to turn down droves of illegals which will force these illegals to go home. The country is safer. There will also be less in the streets. 3. Rasing the per hour wage will make tomato picking a lot more tolerable. People (legal immigrants) will just go work in the fields and make more money than if they were flipping burgers. It will also force farmers to pay decent wages and have humane working conditions. However, 1. The bill does not prevent illegal immigrants from crossing the border. Tighter restrictions does not equal lesser illegals. They will just find other ways to make money in the US. All they want is a job in the US, because Mexico or other countries can't give them one. I am married to a former illegal immigrant. I have been to her town. Most people there only have a tortilla and salt for their meals. Tell me, why wouldn't they dream of coming here to the US, legal or not. They can rummage the garbage bin of a Mcdonald's here and eat better than 80% of the people in Mexico. 2. What the catholic charities are doing is just helping a fellow human being regardless of status. In-line with the teachings of our Lord Himself. We can argue about what the catholic stance is but we cannot argue with what Jesus have said. These charities understand it is not their job to stop illegal immigration. They just want to serve the Lord. 3. Paying $10/hr to pick tomatoes will not usher legal immigrants to work in the fields. For legal or americans to take back breaking jobs like that, will require a unionized labor force with each individual making close to $30/hour with paid benefits. Ask yourself sincerely, would you pick tomatoes for $10/hour? In addition, market prices will reflect what farmers pay for labor. Somewhere in the area of $5 per 1 tomato. At least we are safer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 It doesn't matter if opposing the bill is technically Catholic or not. IM presented a legitmate Catholic perspective that did not agree with you. The Catholic Church also fostered homosexuality in priests, protected molesters, and let priests leave the country to avoid prosecution. Not exactly a stellar record in practicing morality in the real world, even though it was morally nice to claim to have forgiven the priest and helped him seek treatment... 1. Then get your wife to introduce to to a few illegals and get to know them. The only way to break the cycle of being trapped in slave conditions is to force them to come to the US as legals. We have the jobs for them. The system needs to change where they are recognized and protected by the Government and that means they have to recognize and obey the Gov. 2. Catholic charities should probably follow ALL the Catholic rusles which include respecting the legitimate immigration laws of the US. It is easier to immigrate here than any other major country. 3. Flat out, you have no clue. I've done harder work for less than $10 an hour within the last few years. Some of my current employees work harder for less. You are incredibly naive and arrogant and seperated from reality to claim that it will take a unionized work force and $30 an hour. That's incredibly stupid and I'm shocked to think that came from someone old enough to be married. $10 an hour goes alot further when you are here legally and don't have to live in a camp, be driven to work by the farmer, are not afraid to report crimes, are not afraid to go to a hospital, are not afraid to seek social services. Providing decent worker pay and benefits is a cost of processing food. If it makes tomatoes $10 each, then that's what a tomato costs. The US must eliminate the pool of illegal or 'second-class' labor. If a Mexican can pick squash, so can an American citizen. There should be no difference in the way they are treated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 [quote]2. Catholic charities should probably follow ALL the Catholic rusles which include respecting the legitimate immigration laws of the US. It is easier to immigrate here than any other major country.[/quote] Feel free to show where the Church states that aid should only be given to legal residents. That should be pretty easy for you. You've got the militant flag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 [quote name='hot stuff' date='Mar 28 2006, 06:33 AM']Feel free to show where the Church states that aid should only be given to legal residents. That should be pretty easy for you. You've got the militant flag [right][snapback]924809[/snapback][/right] [/quote]Feel free to show where the Church states that immigrants should disregard the laws of the Nation they've adopted. Feel free to show where the Church states that a Government has no authority in regulating immigrants. That should be easy for you, you've got the militant flag. Back to reality. The point I'm making is classifying certain jobs as being without merit or dignity and not worthy of an American citizen and somehow we need to import hispanics, either legally or illegally in order to have cheap strawberries and tomatoes. The need and demand for labor will force the Government to streamline the legal immigrant proceedures. Legitimizing the presence of these workers removes most of the factors that allow them to be exploited. It's politics. Why is it we send Cubans escaping Fidel and atheism back, but we allow illegal Mexicans to pick fruit and clean our bathrooms? Because there aren't enough Cubans to pick fruit and once Cubans get asylum here they tap into the opportunites of this country and don't have to pick squash for pennies. Whereas the Mexicans are more plentiful and America benefits too much from their exploitation. Americans don't want to pay a fair price for tomatoes so we allow a system, whether it's "Guest Workers", or "Illegal Immigrant Rights" so we can have a seperate class of people who will do the hard jobs for nothing so we can buy tacos, so very tasty and good for you, for 79cents and our citizen children can work inside for $8 and not have to work outside at a 'demeaning' job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 So I'll take that as "Sorry hot stuff I can't demonstrate it" Which makes sense. Because the Church doesn't say it. In fact it teaches the opposite, Too bad you (and others) can't admit to it. I have yet to argue about any other point of the bill. So I really don't have to defend my position on those points. Yes I'm against the exploitation of illegal workers Yes I'm against illegal sex trades blah blah blah What I am also against is the section of the bill that makes it a felony to give aid to any illegal alien. It goes against Church teaching and I'm not going to ignore something so egregious because I don't have a problem with other parts of the bill. That's the reality Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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