AngelofJesus Posted March 27, 2006 Author Share Posted March 27, 2006 [quote name='Sojourner' date='Mar 27 2006, 09:53 AM']So you're saying that as long as abortion still exists in the U.S., none of us should have any focus other than that? We should ignore all other injustices until abortion has been eradicated? [right][snapback]923791[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I would love to see an Ironmonk rebuttal on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 [quote name='AngelofJesus' date='Mar 27 2006, 02:58 PM']I would love to see an Ironmonk rebuttal on this one. [right][snapback]923875[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Sojo has been set to ignore. That is an illogical assumption and I'm not going to waste my time with people who cannot grasp some basic concepts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 [quote name='ironmonk' date='Mar 27 2006, 02:46 PM']Sojo has been set to ignore. That is an illogical assumption and I'm not going to waste my time with people who cannot grasp some basic concepts. [right][snapback]923936[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Of course she has been set to ignore. Because she's got a point and you can't answer it. Cowardly but whatever [quote]Now, the penalty for breaking those laws is up for debate... the Church is not infallible in regards to discipline, and it being a felony falls on those grounds. So far, I haven't seen anything logical or faithwise to reject making it a felony.[/quote] Hmm lets try this on for size [quote]2462 Giving alms to the poor is a witness to fraternal charity: it is also a work of justice pleasing to God.[/quote] [quote]2444 "The Church's love for the poor . . . is a part of her constant tradition." This love is inspired by the Gospel of the Beatitudes, of the poverty of Jesus, and of his concern for the poor. Love for the poor is even one of the motives for the duty of working so as to "be able to give to those in need." It extends not only to material poverty but also to the many forms of cultural and religious poverty.[/quote] [quote]2443 God blesses those who come to the aid of the poor and rebukes those who turn away from them: "Give to him who begs from you, do not refuse him who would borrow from you"; "you received without pay, give without pay." It is by what they have done for the poor that Jesus Christ will recognize his chosen ones. When "the poor have the good news preached to them," it is the sign of Christ's presence.[/quote] And we've barely scratched the surface. Nowhere does it say anything about citizenship. Care to recant now or shall we let you dig an even deeper hole for yourself? I'm fine either way\ [quote]I have little respect for anyone who sees this as a greater need than ending abortion.[/quote] And yet you are the only one talking about abortion here. This is such an obvious ploy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 [quote name='hot stuff' date='Mar 27 2006, 01:59 PM']It is a red herring. You are trying to avoid the fact that you were wrong about the bill. Its slight of hand and its obvious. But to come around back on subject. You are saying that Cardinal Mahoney and the bishops have their facts wrong on social justice issues? Is that your position? And leave abortion out of it. [right][snapback]923799[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I'm not wrong. This is not a social justice issue. To be an illegal alien is breaking the law to begin with. Illegal aliens should be deported. The punishment of breaking the law is an area of discipline. It's a red herring that you try to twist what I'm saying about why it's pathetic that protests do not happen like this over abortion. It goes to show that whoever is leading these protests has skewed judgement... Comparing it to Nazi's... give me a break and think just for one minute... protesting in the streets about Nazi's would get someone killed around WWII... protesting in the streets about abortion is not getting anyone killed. There is nothing unjust with the bill. If you want to change my view, show me with the Catechism. I've posted with the Catechism. These people protesting in the streets... I say start there, illegal aliens should be shipped out the country. Most illegals are not facing a life or death situation and need to come here legally.... END OF STORY. To break the law is a sin. A law to send illegal aliens out of a country IS NOT unjust. [u][b]Get the illegals out... AND allow more legals in.[/b][/u] That's the bottom line. If you want to illogical twist what I write, it will not surprise me because you and other liberals on the board for some reason cannot grasp logic, law, and the faith. It is against the common good to allow so many illegals to stay in this country. It is against the common good to allow businesses to take advantage of illegal aliens. For the protection of illegal aliens, they need to be kept from and detered from coming to America [b]illegally[/b]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 [quote name='hot stuff' date='Mar 27 2006, 03:57 PM']Of course she has been set to ignore. Because she's got a point and you can't answer it. Cowardly but whatever Hmm lets try this on for size And we've barely scratched the surface. Nowhere does it say anything about citizenship. Care to recant now or shall we let you dig an even deeper hole for yourself? I'm fine either way\ And yet you are the only one talking about abortion here. This is such an obvious ploy. [right][snapback]923938[/snapback][/right] [/quote] You are just as illogical as she is. LOL And "she's got a point"... Not. LOL It is a shame that some people can't learn logic and common sense. I'm praying for you and ignoring you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 I love how you just ignore everyone who doesn't agree with you. That's pretty handy. Then, you never have to actually think through your assumptions. Much much easier that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 (edited) Of course you're going to ignore me You haven't got a leg to stand on on this issue and you're looking bad. You keep on digging the hole deeper and deeper. It is a social justice issue when charitable organizations are forced to deny help to those who need it simply because they cannot provide proper documentation. It is a sin. Cardinal Mahoney is right on this issue, Abby is right and so am I. Its your pride that prevents you from acknowledging the obvious truth. If you are so disinclined to follow proper Church teachings, that is your call. But it is the wrong one I hope you will use this time of ignoring people to properly get catechized in Church teaching Monk. I really do. Edited March 27, 2006 by jaime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azriel Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 And with that ... I banish thee to the debate table ... See, I knew I should have just done it earlier. Play nice in the sanbox, kiddo's.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 And to add to the education of Ironmonk Here is a quote from Populorum Progressio [quote]17. But each man is a member of society. He is part of the whole of mankind. It is not just certain individuals, but all men who are called to this fullness of development. Civilizations are born, develop and die. But humanity is advancing along the path of history like the waves of a rising tide encroaching gradually on the shore. We have inherited from past generations, and we have benefited from the work of our contemporaries: for this reason we have obligations towards all, and we cannot refuse to interest ourselves in those who will come after us to enlarge the human family. The reality of human solidarity, which is a benefit for us, also imposes a duty.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 [quote name='ironmonk' date='Mar 27 2006, 02:46 PM']Sojo has been set to ignore. That is an illogical assumption and I'm not going to waste my time with people who cannot grasp some basic concepts. [right][snapback]923936[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Since we are all wrong maybe you should just put everyone on ignor, or maybe you could try seeing the other side of the argument for once. Ignoring her good point doesn't make it go away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toledo_jesus Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 The government had better stay out of my church. The day people have to verify their citizenship before eating is the day I leave this idiot country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 [quote name='AngelofJesus' date='Mar 26 2006, 10:17 AM']Do you really think that the eventual harm is aimed towards hispanics? Does the tighter immigration bill hurt our economy by reducing the number of illegal immigrant workers? Is this bill really going to increase homeland security? [right][snapback]922663[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I am married to an immigrant. My grandparents were immigrants. Many of my siblings are married to immigrants. I employ immigrants. Live in a rural area with immigrants. I used to go to Church with them, live near them, am friends with them, have worked for illegal immigrants, eaten in their homes, been helped by illegal immigrants, and have helped illegal immigrants stay in the Country and seek legal status. Members of my family have helped smuggle people into this Country and seek asylum. Today's Hispanic illegal immigrants are America's slaves and are treated sub-human. As long as lazy Americans believe the myth that they are hardworking and happy to slave for low wages in miserable conitions, we can fool ourselves that we are 'helping' them. The way to eliminate the problem of illegal immigrants is to force companies to not hire them and enforce the labor laws of the nation. Why shouldn't a company hire someone to pick tomatoes at $7 an hour when that is all they have to pay migrant workers who believe that's the best they can do because they are illegal. Force farmers to hire legal workers and you will see $10 an hour or more so they can compete for workers. Fat lazy Americans scream and yell that the guy making tacos, so very tasty and good for you, in TB should be paid a living wage, even though that job is done by a teen, living at home with his parents, saving to buy a new car and an iPod. But fat lazy Americans also scream if they cant buy a tomato for less than a buck and ignore the plight of the picker who does a much more demanding job and are trapped because of ignorance and fear and console themselves it's better than living in Mexico. The Guest Worker Program only facilitates the importating of people to exploit. I belonged to a rural parish that could not afford to build a 'spiritual looking Church', we had a community center/church. Most of you 'Catholics' would be horrified at the liberal 'lack' of 'reverence'. That little parish instead built and supported a mission complex of housing, health care, social services, adult training, etc., for migrant workers. The requirement for help? You must be a legal alien, or working to become legal because that is the only way we could screen out people just taking advantage of the system, or avoid helping people who would not help themselves. Even a homeless shelter has rules that must be obeyed or you get thrown out. Think the whole thing through. Why are some people willing to work picking vegetables and some people aren't? Because for some, picking vegetables is the best option available to them. Why are low wages the 'rule' for farm workers? Because they can find people who are trapped into chosing to be exploited. Tighten the borders to prevent illegals from coming. Force illegals to register. Create HUGE penalties for those who hire illegals. Tell the whiney, lazy, stupid Americans to quit crying about paying more for strawberries and tomatoes. Farmers will have to pay more for labor because the unending flow of scared, ignorant labor escaping an island, Mexico, Central or South America, will dry up. The added costs will reflect in food prices. Farm workers will be paid more, be registered and have better access to social services, and will soon be able to take full advantage of opportunites in this country instead of having to stay under the radar for decades. Want cheaper tacos, so very tasty and good for you, from TB? Pay the teen working in the AC $4 and have her wait a little longer before she buys the iPod, don't insist on cheap tacos, so very tasty and good for you, buy thinking 20cents is too much for a 'mater. But I guess my opinion isn't 'Catholic' enough, is heartless, mean, against 'Church' teachings, etc. I guess I don't know reality like some Cardinal or Bishop who were politically astute enough to gain their position. SFW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 [quote name='jasJis' date='Mar 27 2006, 04:07 PM']I am married to an immigrant. My grandparents were immigrants. Many of my siblings are married to immigrants. I employ immigrants. Live in a rural area with immigrants. I used to go to Church with them, live near them, am friends with them, have worked for illegal immigrants, eaten in their homes, been helped by illegal immigrants, and have helped illegal immigrants stay in the Country and seek legal status. Members of my family have helped smuggle people into this Country and seek asylum. Today's Hispanic illegal immigrants are America's slaves and are treated sub-human. As long as lazy Americans believe the myth that they are hardworking and happy to slave for low wages in miserable conitions, we can fool ourselves that we are 'helping' them. The way to eliminate the problem of illegal immigrants is to force companies to not hire them and enforce the labor laws of the nation. Why shouldn't a company hire someone to pick tomatoes at $7 an hour when that is all they have to pay migrant workers who believe that's the best they can do because they are illegal. Force farmers to hire legal workers and you will see $10 an hour or more so they can compete for workers. Fat lazy Americans scream and yell that the guy making tacos, so very tasty and good for you, in TB should be paid a living wage, even though that job is done by a teen, living at home with his parents, saving to buy a new car and an iPod. But fat lazy Americans also scream if they cant buy a tomato for less than a buck and ignore the plight of the picker who does a much more demanding job and are trapped because of ignorance and fear and console themselves it's better than living in Mexico. The Guest Worker Program only facilitates the importating of people to exploit. I belonged to a rural parish that could not afford to build a 'spiritual looking Church', we had a community center/church. Most of you 'Catholics' would be horrified at the liberal 'lack' of 'reverence'. That little parish instead built and supported a mission complex of housing, health care, social services, adult training, etc., for migrant workers. The requirement for help? You must be a legal alien, or working to become legal because that is the only way we could screen out people just taking advantage of the system, or avoid helping people who would not help themselves. Even a homeless shelter has rules that must be obeyed or you get thrown out. Think the whole thing through. Why are some people willing to work picking vegetables and some people aren't? Because for some, picking vegetables is the best option available to them. Why are low wages the 'rule' for farm workers? Because they can find people who are trapped into chosing to be exploited. Tighten the borders to prevent illegals from coming. Force illegals to register. Create HUGE penalties for those who hire illegals. Tell the whiney, lazy, stupid Americans to quit crying about paying more for strawberries and tomatoes. Farmers will have to pay more for labor because the unending flow of scared, ignorant labor escaping an island, Mexico, Central or South America, will dry up. The added costs will reflect in food prices. Farm workers will be paid more, be registered and have better access to social services, and will soon be able to take full advantage of opportunites in this country instead of having to stay under the radar for decades. Want cheaper tacos, so very tasty and good for you, from TB? Pay the teen working in the AC $4 and have her wait a little longer before she buys the iPod, don't insist on cheap tacos, so very tasty and good for you, buy thinking 20cents is too much for a 'mater. But I guess my opinion isn't 'Catholic' enough, is heartless, mean, against 'Church' teachings, etc. I guess I don't know reality like some Cardinal or Bishop who were politically astute enough to gain their position. SFW [right][snapback]924117[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Good points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 [quote]Most of you 'Catholics' would be horrified at the liberal 'lack' of 'reverence'. That little parish instead built and supported a mission complex of housing, health care, social services, adult training, etc., for migrant workers. The requirement for help? You must be a legal alien, or working to become legal because that is the only way we could screen out people just taking advantage of the system, or avoid helping people who would not help themselves. Even a homeless shelter has rules that must be obeyed or you get thrown out.[/quote] Uh huh So what about the countless missions that feed and clothe the homeless and the indigent? Should they check ids at the door? No id no food for you bud. Is that Catholic? Or is Cardinal Mahoney advocating a more Catholic approach in advocating going against this potential law? Anyone can answer since Ironmonk cannot face the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 [quote name='jasJis' date='Mar 27 2006, 06:07 PM']I am married to an immigrant. My grandparents were immigrants. Many of my siblings are married to immigrants. I employ immigrants. Live in a rural area with immigrants. I used to go to Church with them, live near them, am friends with them, have worked for illegal immigrants, eaten in their homes, been helped by illegal immigrants, and have helped illegal immigrants stay in the Country and seek legal status. Members of my family have helped smuggle people into this Country and seek asylum. Today's Hispanic illegal immigrants are America's slaves and are treated sub-human. As long as lazy Americans believe the myth that they are hardworking and happy to slave for low wages in miserable conitions, we can fool ourselves that we are 'helping' them. The way to eliminate the problem of illegal immigrants is to force companies to not hire them and enforce the labor laws of the nation. Why shouldn't a company hire someone to pick tomatoes at $7 an hour when that is all they have to pay migrant workers who believe that's the best they can do because they are illegal. Force farmers to hire legal workers and you will see $10 an hour or more so they can compete for workers. Fat lazy Americans scream and yell that the guy making tacos, so very tasty and good for you, in TB should be paid a living wage, even though that job is done by a teen, living at home with his parents, saving to buy a new car and an iPod. But fat lazy Americans also scream if they cant buy a tomato for less than a buck and ignore the plight of the picker who does a much more demanding job and are trapped because of ignorance and fear and console themselves it's better than living in Mexico. The Guest Worker Program only facilitates the importating of people to exploit. I belonged to a rural parish that could not afford to build a 'spiritual looking Church', we had a community center/church. Most of you 'Catholics' would be horrified at the liberal 'lack' of 'reverence'. That little parish instead built and supported a mission complex of housing, health care, social services, adult training, etc., for migrant workers. The requirement for help? You must be a legal alien, or working to become legal because that is the only way we could screen out people just taking advantage of the system, or avoid helping people who would not help themselves. Even a homeless shelter has rules that must be obeyed or you get thrown out. Think the whole thing through. Why are some people willing to work picking vegetables and some people aren't? Because for some, picking vegetables is the best option available to them. Why are low wages the 'rule' for farm workers? Because they can find people who are trapped into chosing to be exploited. Tighten the borders to prevent illegals from coming. Force illegals to register. Create HUGE penalties for those who hire illegals. Tell the whiney, lazy, stupid Americans to quit crying about paying more for strawberries and tomatoes. Farmers will have to pay more for labor because the unending flow of scared, ignorant labor escaping an island, Mexico, Central or South America, will dry up. The added costs will reflect in food prices. Farm workers will be paid more, be registered and have better access to social services, and will soon be able to take full advantage of opportunites in this country instead of having to stay under the radar for decades. Want cheaper tacos, so very tasty and good for you, from TB? Pay the teen working in the AC $4 and have her wait a little longer before she buys the iPod, don't insist on cheap tacos, so very tasty and good for you, buy thinking 20cents is too much for a 'mater. But I guess my opinion isn't 'Catholic' enough, is heartless, mean, against 'Church' teachings, etc. I guess I don't know reality like some Cardinal or Bishop who were politically astute enough to gain their position. SFW [right][snapback]924117[/snapback][/right] [/quote] My friend... Farmers don't have to pay minimum wage. The fields are full of illegal aliens working for $0.02 per ton of tomatos... they are lucky to make $100 working six days from dawn til dusk. Many are held at gunpoint... because farmers pay for them to be shipped here. Also, they can't take breaks... well, they can take a break, but then they'll loose their row of veggies to pick to someone else who needs to work... they get paid by the ton... not the pound, not the hour... the ton. Women and children in the fields, entire familys picking tomatos all day long... no school... no breaks... They live in condemned trailers that farmers can pick up for a few hundred dollars... God Bless and thanks for your input. For the others... I just went through the bill again... [quote]harbors, conceals, or shields from detection a person in the United States knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such person is an alien who lacks lawful authority to be in the United States;[/quote] harbors, conceals, or shields = harbors or conceals or shields and the whopping key term: "From detection".... Soup kitchens can feed whoever comes through the door and it is not harboring, concealing, or shielding them from detection. Giving someone a sandwich or a bottle of water is not illegal according to the bill. illegal aliens are treated like dirt by people because illegals think that they cannot go to the police. Murder, Rape, etc... all done by legals to illegals. Many children get rapped. But now, let's not forget about the poor Asians that get shipped over here in cargo ships. Slave trade is big... Where do you think all these Asian and Mexican young beautiful prostitutes come from that are all over the big cities and flooded Nevada???? Slaves from other countries. How do they get here, illegally. Want to protect them, then go after employers of them... This bill also has a lot of verbiage about inhuman transfers. It seems to target the employers more than anyone else. Imagine for a minute if you lived In Mexico and China. You have a beatiful young daughter that dreams of coming to America. Someone approaches her and looks legit... shows up at your house and gives you all of these brochures telling you that they can get your daughter to America for school and a great career for $3000 to smuggle her across the border.... You scrape the money together through loans and family... you send your daughter... Oh but wait... she's not going to school. She's going to America or somewhere like Holland, to be a sex slave that they will get hooked on crack, and make her "earn" her freedom, but she'll also have to buy the drugs from them that they got her hooked on, she'll work in a brothel until she doesn't sell anymore and then either killed or thrown on the streets. God Bless, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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