Discerning a Vocation

[MC IMaGiNaZUN]

I don't mean for this to apply to a particular person, but i feel it needs to be said.

Discerning a vocation is about discovering God's will in one's life.

For some that means becoming a hermit, to others a pastor, to some a nun, to some a father, to others a sister, to some a mother, to others a brother, to some a missionary, and even to being single and celibate.

Although we can take hints over our discernment by our desires and by what makes us happy, it does not end there.

I am confident that God is calling me, and have made the decision to enter an order. My desire and attraction to women hasn't, neither do i expect it to dissapear. My desire for a romantic relationship is a natural and healthy aspect of who i am in God's creation, although it is not the totality of who i am.

Desire is just not enough to make a decision on.

Sometimes, another good indication of where God is calling us to is a profound sense of peace. Sometimes we may experience a superficial comfort being surrounded by a bunch of really holy people who have answered the call to religious life. And we feel we want to enter an order, because it makes us feel all warm and fuzzy deep down.

There is more to a vocation than that. Than going where you feel comfortable. I don't believe St. Augustine felt comfortable at all when he was chosen Bishop. When St. Francis became the leader of a new movement in the Church, he probably did not feel comfortable. When St. Teresa began the Carmelite reform, i am sure she did not feel comfortable at all. Blessed Mother Teresa of Calcutta felt great discomfort many years at the end of her life, and did not feel the presence of God.

What is so remarkable about these people is that they stayed their vocation in faithfulness, despite the hardship.

Vocation wasn't about comfort, it was about God alone.

It was not about the consolations of God, but about the God of consolations.

So what does bug me, is that there are people who do mention that they would only enter a "traditional" seminary. Or there are folks who will only enter a "habitted" religious order.

St. Francis de Sales was a Priest, in a time when Seminaries were not a place to become holy. But he did.

By dieing to himself.

By dieing to the comfort of having an orthodox program.

Basically what i am saying, is that it might be easy to go through formation with a traditional order, who lets you dance around in your habit. But the way of the Cross was never easy.

Looking a vocation in a traditional order simply because you may be called, but want to be comfortable, may be the easy way to answer the call.

But believe me, there are ways of being holy, and they are not so easily attained.

I can imagine that St. John of the Cross was so holy, precisely because of all the opposition he had when he entered. He probably would not be as holy as he was, if he was not purged in that manner.

This is in no way an indictment for those who are really called to enter a traditional order. If God is calling you to a particular charism go for it, not just because it is a joyful experience, but because it is what God is calling you to. Because there will be a time when things are difficult, and if you do shrink inside your comfort zone, you may never grow.

SHALOM

[Funky_R]

That's profound. I'll have to reflect and pray on that tonight.

God Bless,
Randall

[passionheart]

I find your comments interesting and very Lenten.

You are right about what a vocation is about. It is simply which path is God calling to take to draw closer to Him. Which is my path of santification that will lead me to holiness.

No matter what the path you are called there is joy and peace and I hope a sense that this is where I belong, and who I should be with, etc. However, we know the truth that there can be no heaven without the Cross. It has taken me many years to understand what that really means.

I used to think that meant I would asked to suffer some big hardship but I have learned it is the little battles or as others would say the splinters from the Cross that can cause the most difficulties and can be hardest struggle to face. No matter what community or situation, even with the strongest support, utimately we must face these struggles on our own.
Why? This is how we grow and learn give ourselves over to God's will and care.

I know from my own experience that the last thirteen years have been very painful but at the same time it has also been a time of grace. I wouldn't have had the heart and the passion for the Lord unless I went through this difficult period. Only now, can I thank the Lord for these hard times which despite the love of many friends and some family I had to face my life the good, bad and ugly parts on my own. I had to repent, forgive and accept healing.

Thanks for reminding us of this truth.

Peace,

DM

Edited March 25, 2006 by passionheart

[TheOliverOrder88]

That is extremely reassuring and convicting all at the same time.

Thank you.

[Marieteresa]

Thank you for posting this....It has really given me something to think about on my journey.


In JMJ

[uruviel]

I appreciate your sharing your opinions with us. However, though I understand what your saying about, it's not all gonna be in one big comfort zone and don't rely on your own pleasures, but on what God wants. The only way to tell what God wants is to follow what you think He wants. And the way you can tell what He wants, is what your heart desires. Whatever your heart desires, you just can't drop the idea of that order, or there's no doubt in your mind about an order, that puts you in your comfort zone, you just know its for you, could be God's way of calling you there. He may put a certain appeal on that order, to guide you to that order. Granted, every soul is different, and God works in mysterious ways, but during my discernment, I rely on what my heart can't let go of. Because I'm not looking for a comfortable place. I'm looking for a place of poverty, solitude, cloister, and it just so happens to be the Poor Clares. Which btw have a shrine in Hanceville, Alamaba which could make anyone feel at home. When you go into the shrine, it's... the presence of God is there, and everyone would want to enter if everyone was discerning. So I could say that, because it makes me feel so good, doesn't mean anything and I shouldn't rely on that good feeling, but on the order itself. And that right there is a good way to discern. But, if the appeal is there for a reason because of God, then how are we going to tell the difference between an appeal set there From God, or an appeal because of different reasons? This is a tough subject to discuss and understand because God works in souls in mysterious ways and no one can judge a soul. I know I didn't explain myself very well I'm sorry about that

[quote name='MC IMaGiNaZUN' date='Mar 24 2006, 07:29 PM']I don't mean for this to apply to a particular person, but i feel it needs to be said.

Discerning a vocation is about discovering God's will in one's life.

For some that means becoming a hermit, to others a pastor, to some a nun, to some a father, to others a sister, to some a mother, to others a brother, to some a missionary, and even to being single and celibate.

Although we can take hints over our discernment by our desires and by what makes us happy, it does not end there.

I am confident that God is calling me, and have made the decision to enter an order.  My desire and attraction to women hasn't, neither do i expect it to dissapear.  My desire for a romantic relationship is a natural and healthy aspect of who i am in God's creation, although it is not the totality of who i am.

Desire is just not enough to make a decision on.

Sometimes, another good indication of where God is calling us to is a profound sense of peace.  Sometimes we may experience a superficial comfort being surrounded by a bunch of really holy people who have answered the call to religious life.  And we feel we want to enter an order, because it makes us feel all warm and fuzzy deep down.

There is more to a vocation than that.  Than going where you feel comfortable.  I don't believe St. Augustine felt comfortable at all when he was chosen Bishop.  When St. Francis became the leader of a new movement in the Church, he probably did not feel comfortable.  When St. Teresa began the Carmelite reform, i am sure she did not feel comfortable at all.  Blessed Mother Teresa of Calcutta felt great discomfort many years at the end of her life, and did not feel the presence of God.

What is so remarkable about these people is that they stayed their vocation in faithfulness, despite the hardship.

Vocation wasn't about comfort, it was about God alone.

It was not about the consolations of God, but about the God of consolations.

So what does bug me, is that there are people who do mention that they would only enter a "traditional" seminary.  Or there are folks who will only enter a "habitted" religious order.

St. Francis de Sales was a Priest, in a time when Seminaries were not a place to become holy.  But he did.

By dieing to himself.

By dieing to the comfort of having an orthodox program.

Basically what i am saying, is that it might be easy to go through formation with a traditional order, who lets you dance around in your habit.  But the way of the Cross was never easy.

Looking a vocation in a traditional order simply because you may be called, but want to be comfortable, may be the easy way to answer the call.

But believe me, there are ways of being holy, and they are not so easily attained.

I can imagine that St. John of the Cross was so holy, precisely because of all the opposition he had when he entered.  He probably would not be as holy as he was, if he was not purged in that manner.

This is in no way an indictment for those who are really called to enter a traditional order.  If God is calling you to a particular charism go for it, not just because it is a joyful experience, but because it is what God is calling you to.  Because there will be a time when things are difficult, and if you do shrink inside your comfort zone, you may never grow.

SHALOM
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[HisChild]

I've thought about this post for quite some time, because quite honestly, I wasn't sure how to respond, either internally or, if I chose to do so here. In the end, I decided to respond because I felt that orthodoxy was being hit, so to speak, and I wanted to present another view.

My first inclination is to say that the words of the original post seem very. . .angry and even accusatory, and even though you'd stated this is not your intent, the rest of your post tells otherwise. I'm not sure where your thoughts are coming from, to be honest, and if they've come as a response to posts you've seen on this phorum. Have you seen the excitement of some posters who have found their place. . .and have you taken that for a 'superficial feeling' of 'warm fuzzies'? It's difficult for one to share that 'feeling of peace' on a medium such as the internet, so one shares the excitement that goes along with knowing your place in the world.

When someone feels inclined to enter a religious community, it is not something done in a vacuum. Vita Consecrata shares that 'that the consecrated life is not something isolated and marginal, but a reality which affects the whole Church'. Therefore, when religious vocation discernment occurs, She will not just sit back and tell the discerner to discern away and not have an active participation in this search for place. The Church participates in this discernment by way of parish priest if the person shares their vocational search with him, the spiritual director, if the person is lucky to find one, and with the various vocation directors within the communities, who in turn, share with the discerner their thoughts of the person's suitability to religious life in general and more specifically, to their community.

I'm sure there will be times, within the religious life, once the person enters, that a person does not feel 'comfortable' within a certain situation. That is to say, outside one's comfort zone. However, when discerning, there will be a level of comfort inside, a knowledge of... well, as my own spiritual director shared with me, you will be able to say that you can live in this place for the rest of your life, in spite of the various sacrifices you know you will have to make when entering or further down the road.

Say that one is called to have a daily prayer life of Adoration, Holy Mass, Divine Office in common, because truly, since you are consecrating yourself to the Lord, the attraction to prayer should come first. As I've shared before. . .God first, apostolate second. If it's only the apostolate that attracts, well, one could do that as a secular. Anyway, because one wouldn't be comfortable entering a community where Mass, praying the Office in common, is a daily option, should we say, well, gee, because I don't get that warm, 'at peace' feeling in this community, I should enter? No, I don't believe so.

When discerning, something truly best done with a spiritual director, he or she will say, more often than not, to pray about your vocation, and that God will call you, if you are being called to religious life, to not only a specific order but also a specific community or congregation. So, say that you are attracted to, in your heart, a love for intense prayer and union with God. Well, one usually thinks of Carmelites. So that would be a good place to start. That's not to say that this is where you'll end up. Or, let's say that Adoration of Jesus in the exposed Blessed Sacrament has always been an important devotion in your life. Your SD will more than likely urge you to start looking on the path that either has Perpetual Adoration, or a community that has at least a daily Holy Hour.

Our natural inclinations are not always the best voices to listen to when learning of our vocation, and we shouldn't be surprised if our vocational discernment journey takes us on a fork in the road that we didn't expect. Goodness, I'm the best example of that! My adamant insistence that I was called to be a Carmelite! LOL Usually, however, if we are being led down another path, a path we didn't anticipate, that comes in the form of a suggestion by a spiritual director, perhaps even a suggestion by a VD of one community to look at another community, or even a suggestion by your parish priest, or some other nudge that may be nothing, or it may be God using that person since you, whether intentional or not, weren't 'hearing' His will for you.

But there are internal nudges, if you will, that our Lord uses to guide us to the place where He feels is the best place for us to give Him glory. He begins by placing a natural love in our heart. And while we may feel initial resistance, a 'no, I'm not called to be a cloistered nun' feeling, for example. . when we pray, and allow His will to manifest, and not our own, if those thoughts persist, well, we should give them credence, or at least a more in-depth 'look see' to see if it will bear fruit.

The comments made about those saints like Teresa of Avila, Francis, Mother Teresa etc, who stayed within their vocation saw hardship and crosses. . .those saints, I'm sure, did not see during their initial vocational discernment some glimpse into the future to know that these specific crosses would come, only the knowledge that within the religious life comes sacrifice and dying to self. That happens naturally, and if anyone who enters religious life now does not recognize that this will happen, there will be a rather rude awakening for them later down the line.

As for the religious habit, perhaps you believe there are those online who are romanticizing the idea of wearing the holy habit, especially with your rather caustic, rather uncharitable and assuming remark of 'dancing around in the habit'. I cannot speak for others, truly, but most posts that I've read have reiterated time and again a desire, a zeal for God, of wanting to be a visible witness to others. There are so many orders out there whose members live not in community, but alone. They drive their own cars, have to find their own jobs, and have no visible witness to others of their consecration to God. And most of these communities were not founded in this fashion. Regardless of those communities, because my point is not about them, but that today, especially most of the posters on this phorum, who are discerning religious life, want something more. They want to do something more than what they could do right now as a single person in the world. They want to live and pray in community. They want the opportunity to go to Mass daily (something that I could never do when I was working as a nurse, as I started work at 6am). They want to be a visible witness of their religious life. St Francis said that we are to evangelize always, and when necessary, use words. Those in the religious habit are a visible evangelization to those around them, seen especially when they are stopped in the grocery store, on the street by people who want to talk about their faith, to ask for prayers. . .people who wouldn't have known to do so if the religious was in secular clothing. They are like those who did not put their lamps under a basket, but instead put in on a lampstand for all to see. I'm not going to argue the rebuttal of those who say that the habit was secular clothing at one time. But what it represents now, in today's society, is a visible witness that one is a religious , that one has set society's values aside for 'the sake of the Kingdom'. And for those men and women who choose the habit are wanting that evangelization, that witness, that desire to be used in that way, even for the possible conversion of souls.

As for setting aside 'the comfort of an orthodox program'. When I read that I had to blink a few times. If anything, a more orthodox program would be LESS comfortable than more so. The more orthodfox monasteries I've visited don't have a television, they don't listen to the radio. There is more silence, the horarium is more strict. Visiting and communication times are less frequent, the grille in the parlors are seen as more austere.

I've visited a couple monasteries/convents where the schedule is more lax. One place allows for the little hours, such as mid-morning, mid-day and mid-afternoon prayer, to be optionally prayed in chapel, in case one wants to pray them alone, while walking, etc. Instead of there being morning prayer, then meditation, their horarium starts with the meditation, 'so that if you want to sleep in, you can'. Based only on my own visits, I would gather that being in a more 'orthodox' program, one would be inclined to say that it is less comfortable, rather than more so.

You say the way of the Cross was never easy. And you are correct. . .but let me share something my own (soon-to-be) mother superior told me. I asked her, once if they still had the practice of the 'discipline' (think Nun's Story, and the little 'whip', for those who don't know what I'm talking about). She responded that the rigors of religious life are hard enough without having the extra penances added. And she's right. Religous life isn't going to be easy. Regardless of the community, but especially those in the more traditional orders (and I suppose I can only comment on those I've received info from, like the Sisters of Life, SMME, SSEW, PCPA, Nashville OP, DCJ, etc.), your life is going to be radically altered. No more sleeping in late on Saturdays, no more calling your friends when you feel like it, no more emails to friends, no more Starbucks when you want a pick-me-up (although some allow for drinks such as coffee in between meals), no more browsing in Barnes n Noble just because you want to see the new books out there. I could go on with that list!

The habit, the traditional communities, well those ideals may bring you there, to that community, but the everyday sacrifices, the dying of self and to the secular world are heady enough, that were you not truly called to that way of life, you wouldn't be able to remain.

God bless you and I will keep you in my prayers.

[MC IMaGiNaZUN]

PCPA 2 B

Thank you for clarifying and complimenting my point with varying perspective depth and insight that i know not how to express.

If my post makes anybody uncomfortable, that is fine. If you are faithful to God in your vocation, you have nothing to be uncomfortable over what seems to be the rantings of a confused lunatic. If you are not steady in your vocation, maybe becoming uncomfortable is a sign that you need renewal and clarity in your vocation.

I issue this as a challenge.

This is not a matter of me discouraging someone to join an orthodox or traditional community...

This is a matter of me challenging whoever reads this to look deeper into their vocation than mere externals. Of searching for an order with a charism that is lived out, or more importantly that you see yourself as living out. Daily mass, divine office, the rosary, novenas, contemplative prayer... These are things that are not peculiar to one particular religious order. And basing a vocation simply and merely on these things does not get to the heart of the matter.

If someone looks at the Legionaries of Christ (a notably and admirably traditional order in the church), and understands and feels connected to their charism, and sees the work they carry out in the church as urgent, i would highly encourage them to join. But if someone joined just to learn latin or pray, they are not getting to the heart of discernment.

I also want to further differentiate between a divine peace and a superficial warm and fuzzy. Divine or supernatural peace is something that we encounter in our relationship with God. It is somehow an affirmation from God that we are doing the right thing, following the right path. It is God's way of showing forth in our life that he is proud of us as his children. I believe that people who do discern experience this frequently. The warm and fuzzy is the feeling of natural satisfaction we get from doing the right thing. We as humans were made directed towards good. Prayer being good, we can sometimes get feeling of natural satisfaction. And we especially get this when we experience prayer anew. Perhaps the first time we prayed the rosary by ourselves, that we meditated upon scripture, or the first time we the divine office in a convent.

However, i know many wonderful and holy married people who have prayed divine office for the first time with monks, and feel a certain giddiness. It does not mean that they are called, it just means that they have encountered God anew. But the prayer itself is not God, the prayer is the means to God.

Finally, if you are not yet sick of putting up me and my post, i wish to clarify one further thing. Either-or reasoning. That i am can only be saying either join a traditional order or don't join a traditional order. That i seem to be saying don't join a traditional order just simply because it is traditional can be misinterpreted as simply don't join a traditional religious order. I really hope that nobody will simplify this issue i bring forth. It is really a complicated issue, so please don't pretend like this aspect of discernment is.

And i appreciate the feedback, i don't suppose that i am infallible, and i think that people who do read this will be enriched in their own vocation if they get other counter points from other perspectives. PCPA 2b that is why i highly appreciate your feedback, thank you very much.

SHALOM

PS in case you didnt know, or supposed i just type this out of habit... SHALOM is the jewish expression of Peace. So i do wish a deep profound sense of Peace that can only be found in harmonizing oneself with God's will. Such a peace is not only a consolation, but also a challenge. I hope as my beloved sisters and brothers in Christ that you will continue to challenge me when i am not in harmony with God's will, and to console me when i am.

God loves you!!!

[magnificat]

[quote name='MC IMaGiNaZUN' date='Mar 26 2006, 12:13 PM']This is a matter of me challenging whoever reads this to look deeper into their vocation than mere externals.  Of searching for an order with a charism that is lived out, or more importantly that you see yourself as living out.  Daily mass, divine office, the rosary, novenas, contemplative prayer...  These are things that are not peculiar to one particular religious order.  And basing a vocation simply and merely on these things does not get to the heart of the matter.
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I respectfully disagree with you on this point. I don't think that a community's prayer life or even their garb are truly "mere externals." It's possible, particularly early in discernment, to be solely attracted to a community based on a habit, etc, but I think as you continue discerning, there has to be something more there.

Yes, you can go to Mass, pray Divine Office, etc. in many communities, but the particular rubric used tends to be specific to an order. And it is often in the execution of these prayers that grants one the inner peace you refer to. As I believe PCPA2Be mentioned above, these are sacrifices, but yet, joyful ones for the sake of Christ. Same with religious habits...particularly for girls, I would imagine. Many sisters that I have spoke with often say that the habit is a reminder of who they are and of the sacrificial/penetiential lives they ought to be living.

[HisChild]

MC Imaginazun,

God bless you for your charity.

I was truly unsure if I should respond, and how to make my point, without sounding too harsh.

Again, as I said before, if it truly isn't your vocation, no matter how 'nice' it seems, all the sacrifices of daily life will be one's undoing. I visited a monastery that was located on the ocean. I commented how wonderful it would be to live in such a place where one could hear the ocean even in the chapel. She said, 'The ocean might bring you here, but it won't keep you here.' How true were those words!

God bless you.

[MC IMaGiNaZUN]

[quote name='magnificat' date='Mar 26 2006, 08:07 PM']Yes, you can go to Mass, pray Divine Office, etc. in many communities, but the particular rubric used tends to be specific to an order.  And it is often in the execution of these prayers that grants one the inner peace you refer to.  As I believe PCPA2Be mentioned above, these are sacrifices, but yet, joyful ones for the sake of Christ.  Same with religious habits...particularly for girls, I would imagine.  Many sisters that I have spoke with often say that the habit is a reminder of who they are and of the sacrificial/penetiential lives they ought to be living.
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Lets say a community doesnt wear a habit, but some of its members do. I would find it admirable that a woman in such an order would willingly and heroicly choose to wear her habit. You should read some of my posts in one of the habit threads i have put.

On the opposite of what i have said, i really know there is a point, where no matter if God is calling you, it may just be impossible. If you enter an order, only to find all they want to do is badmouth the pope, the devotions of the faithful, the hierarchy, or even the habit.

I can fully support someone who makes the brave decision to enter an order out of their decision to what they believe is God calling them, whether or not the order is very traditional. But i do fear, and pray for those who are called to an order than isnt necessarily traditional. I pray that they may have the grace to be faithful to their charism, even if many members of their community are not.

And finally, i hope we can never look down upon someone who feels called to an order that is considered progressive or liberal. One of the main reasons that i posted this was because i found someone having to defend the jesuits.

SHALOM

[goldbug16]

Thank You!
Listen to this story my priest told us...
There was a man who, when he was young, thought about becoming a priest. Later on in his life he got married and became the father of 6 beautiful children. Sometimes he thought and thought that perhaps he shold have been a priest instead. He went to confession and told the priest about it. The priest said, "I know what your vocation is." The man said, "What, what is my vocation?" The preist replied "Your vocation is to be a good husband and father of 6 children."

I thought this was pretty cool...

[HisChild]

Yes, after he married, that became his vocation. It might not have been his original one, who knows, but God works with our free will, and our desire to do His will and to love Him. Some people, also, feel that the grass is greener. . .lol news flash: it's not.