My mom is an usher

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Mar 26 2006, 04:37 PM']your arguing that what St. Paul said was culturally Motivated?

heresy.
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I know you are but what am I.

Why aren't you a Baptist? You seem to like to interpret scripture literally without taking anything else into account. Have you read what the Church says about the interpretation of Sacred Scripture?

Or do you know better than the Church?

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 26 2006, 05:28 PM']I know you are but what am I.

Why aren't you a Baptist? You seem to like to interpret scripture literally without taking anything else into account. Have you read what the Church says about the interpretation of Sacred Scripture?

Or do you know better than the Church?
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[/quote]

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 26 2006, 05:28 PM']I know you are but what am I.

Why aren't you a Baptist? You seem to like to interpret scripture literally without taking anything else into account. Have you read what the Church says about the interpretation of Sacred Scripture?

Or do you know better than the Church?
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[quote][b]19. Yet no one can pretend that certain recent writers really adhere to these limitations. For while conceding that inspiration extends to every phrase - and, indeed, to every single word of Scripture - yet, by endeavoring to distinguish between what they style the primary or religious and the secondary or profane element in the Bible, they claim that the effect of inspiration - namely, absolute truth and immunity from error - are to be restricted to that primary or religious element.[/b] Their notion is that only what concerns religion is intended and taught by God in Scripture, and that all the rest - things concerning "profane knowledge," the garments in which Divine truth is presented - God merely permits, and even leaves to the individual author's greater or less knowledge. Small wonder, then, that in their view a considerable number of things occur in the Bible touching physical science, history and the like, which cannot be reconciled with modern progress in science!

20. Some even maintain that these views do not conflict with what our predecessor laid down since - so they claim - he said that the sacred writers spoke in accordance with the external - and thus deceptive - appearance of things in nature. But the Pontiff's own words show that this is a rash and false deduction. For sound philosophy teaches that the senses can never be deceived as regards their own proper and immediate object. Therefore, from the merely external appearance of things - of which, of course, we have always to take account as Leo XIII, following in the footsteps of St. Augustine and St. Thomas, most wisely remarks - we can never conclude that there is any error in Sacred Scripture.

21. Moreover, our predecessor, sweeping aside all such distinctions between what these critics are pleased to call primary and secondary elements, says in no ambiguous fashion that "those who fancy that when it is a question of the truth of certain expressions we have not got to consider so much what God said as why He said it," are very far indeed from the truth. He also teaches that Divine inspiration extends to every part of the Bible without the slightest exception, and that no error can occur in the inspired text: [b]"It would be wholly impious to limit inspiration to certain portions only of Scripture or to concede that the sacred authors themselves could have erred."[/b] [43][/quote]

- The Encyclical
"Spiritus Paraclitus"
Given by His Holiness Pope Benedict XV
15 September 1920




you are contradicting 2,000 years of church teaching by allowing women to be given authority in the Church and in parishes.

the Bible clearly and infallibly states without question that women should not speak in church, and should not hold positions of authority in the church.

[Tarcisius]

i think hes taking into acount what centuries worth of Saints have said about such matters.

[journeyman]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Mar 26 2006, 01:31 PM']Now, if ushers held real authority they'd been given poking sticks to make sure everyone made a contribution... seeing as they are merely assisting with the collection, however, I would have to say there is zero authority in the position-- zippo....
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I heard about one parish with a space problem - to help maximize pew capacity, the ushers were given those long handled collection baskets - with a flat board at the end to push people closer together . . . probably an urban legend, but having just gone through the building process, I can see it might be helpful

[journeyman]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Mar 26 2006, 03:21 PM']she was taking the position of the Priest. She was acting as a pastor. i was not going to condone that or support such madness by shaking her hand.
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[/quote]

Given that the alternative may be the closure of the parish altogether, perhaps you ought to offer to wash her feet come Holy Thursday. What a sacrifice she is making, to make sure the parish stays open for people who think she is an "uppity woman."

Even in parishes with priests, how much of the work of the church necessary to hold Mass is done by women?

How many parishes would function effectively without them?

If you don't like the church as it is (apparently forced to be), while you are at the seminary, learn to bake bread, press wine, wash, iron and fold linens, then lay them out, clean floors, decorate the sanctuary, select the flowers, dust the statutes, print bulletins, schedule and teach religious ed classes, visit the sick, the shut in, the imprisoned, sit on the board at the food bank, call on parishioners with various spiritual or personal needs for counseling (how much have I left out?) . . . and then you can pray the liturgy of the hours, prepare your homily . . . and maybe get some sleep and a shower

[toledo_jesus]

I would prefer a man take the position, if only because it's one of the few things you see men actually involved with. Women do everything else.

However, since no man had the stones to do it, somebody has to.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='journeyman' date='Mar 26 2006, 06:03 PM']Given that the alternative may be the closure of the parish altogether, perhaps you ought to offer to wash her feet come Holy Thursday.  What a sacrifice she is making, to make sure the parish stays open for people who think she is an "uppity woman."

Even in parishes with priests, how much of the work of the church necessary to hold Mass is done by women? 

How many parishes would function effectively without them?

If you don't like the church as it is (apparently forced to be), while you are at the seminary, learn to bake bread, press wine, wash, iron and fold linens, then lay them out, clean floors, decorate the sanctuary, select the flowers, dust the statutes, print bulletins, schedule and teach religious ed classes, visit the sick, the shut in, the imprisoned, sit on the board at the food bank, call on parishioners with various spiritual or personal needs for counseling (how much have I left out?) . . . and then you can pray the liturgy of the hours, prepare your homily . . . and maybe get some sleep and a shower
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And yes, please, everyone... Find the time to take a shower...

[dimco926]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Mar 26 2006, 06:39 PM']-
the Bible clearly and infallibly states without question that women should not speak in church, and should not hold positions of authority in the church.
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Can you give specific quotes from the bible regarding this? Where exactly in scripture does it say this? I am just curious since I know women have played a huge role in the bible and if we aren't "allowed" to do anything with the Church other than sit there and look pretty, I guess all us females can take Sundays off. Or in my case, Sundays, Mondays, Wednesdays and the occasional Saturday.

[Sinner]

a woman usher came up to me and handed me a bulletin and french kissed me............ now that was too far. A handshake maybe, but the tongue thing was definitely too far.

[Sinner]

a woman usher came up to me and handed me a bulletin and french kissed me............ now that was too far. A handshake maybe, but the tongue thing was definitely too far.

[dimco926]

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Mar 26 2006, 04:17 PM']St. Paul says it is a shame for a woman to speak in church.
Women have no authority in the church and should not be given authority.

at one of my many parishes we have no pastor. but we have a woma "pastoral life director"

yuck. she runs everything and tried to shake my hand after mass. ( i did not let her)  no thanks.
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Since when is rudeness a virtue?
Politeness only applies to people you approve of?

[Era Might]

The Scriptures MUST be read in their cultural context. To do so in no way transgresses the inerrancy of Scripture. The literal sense of Scripture is not what the words say, but what the writer meant. It is the duty of the Church to discern whether the Sacred Writer was teaching a point of doctrine, or if his point was conditioned by the context of the early Church, and does not necessarily apply to the Church in every age.

For example, the Apostles decreed at the Council of Jerusalem:

[quote]It is the decision of the Holy Spirit and of us not to place on you any burden beyond these necessities, namely, to abstain from meat sacrificed to idols, from blood, from meats of strangled animals, and from unlawful marriage. If you keep free of these, you will be doing what is right. Farewell.

--Acts 15[/quote]

Do you abstain "from meats of strangled animals"? Do you ask the butcher at the supermarket if the chicken was strangled before they killed it? No. Why? Because the decision of the Apostles was conditioned by their culture, and was not meant as a point of Divine Revelation.

So it is with the teaching on women. There is an element of doctrine, but the way St. Paul expressed himself, and the pastoral practice of the early Church, does not necessarily bind the Church in all ages, anymore than the judgement of Jerusalem does.

[Era Might]

The Scriptures MUST be read in their cultural context. To do so in no way transgresses the inerrancy of Scripture. The literal sense of Scripture is not what the words say, but what the writer meant. It is the duty of the Church to discern whether the Sacred Writer was teaching a point of doctrine, or if his point was conditioned by the context of the early Church, and does not necessarily apply to the Church in every age.

For example, the Apostles decreed at the Council of Jerusalem:

[quote]It is the decision of the Holy Spirit and of us not to place on you any burden beyond these necessities, namely, to abstain from meat sacrificed to idols, from blood, from meats of strangled animals, and from unlawful marriage. If you keep free of these, you will be doing what is right. Farewell.

--Acts 15[/quote]

Do you abstain "from meats of strangled animals"? Do you ask the butcher at the supermarket if the chicken was strangled before they killed it? No. Why? Because the decision of the Apostles was conditioned by their culture, and was not meant as a point of Divine Revelation.

So it is with the teaching on women. There is an element of doctrine, but the way St. Paul expressed himself, and the pastoral practice of the early Church, does not necessarily bind the Church in all ages, anymore than the judgement of Jerusalem does.