phatcatholic Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 pham, first off, why am i yelling? ........b/c i want to get your attention. why do i want to get your attention? ...............b/c i seriously think that all the church militant here and everyone else interested in apologetics should see this. someone has actually taken the catechism and attempted to show how it is contrary to scripture. (you can read it here) now, i'm sorry, but i cannot allow this to remain w/o a reply. please people, lets come together and respond to this. "why should we respond to this?" you may be thinking. afterall, a quick review of this site will show that the webmaster is rather convicted in his anti-catholicism. so, why bother right? WRONG first off, i don't go out looking for websites to challenge. i leave that to dave armstrong . this site came to us. it came to the apologetics board. someone found it and posted it there. i feel like it is our duty to respond. secondly, i know this webmaster will not be swayed over-night. but why can't we just try? all things are possible w/ God. thirdly, i honestly feel like apologetics is such a worthwhile endeavor, that if we engage in it w/ good intentions then something good will always come of it. we have no idea what that good will be. we may actually get this guy to think differently about one topic. or, others may see our zeal for the truth and realize our commitment to our Lord. we ourselves may learn something new through our research and response. fourthly, i did not send this link only to the catholics, in an attempt to hide it from the non-catholics. its out there for all to see. and when the non-catholics see it, i want them to know that there is a ready answer for every single claim. all of these claims will rise against us eventually. why not tackle them now? we can post the claim and the answer right here at phatmass. fifthly, this article is broken up into sections, each section taking a different line out of the catechism. so, it is easier to divide amongst all those here who are willing to tackle this. we can give each section to a different person. we can post the section, and then our response, here at phatmass for the world to see. catholics and non-catholics alike will benefit from this exercise. the article is broken up into the following sections: 1. Preface/Rome Saith, But What Saith the Scripture? 2. Rome Saith: Tradition Equal to Scripture. 3. Rome Saith: Interpretation of the Word of God Belongs Solely to the Pope 4. Rome Saith: Headship of the Pope Over All the Flock 5. Rome Saith: Papal Infallibility in Faith and Morals 6. Rome Saith: Papal Infallibility Extends Over Scripture 7. Rome Saith: Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary 8. Rome Saith: Ever-Virginity of Mary 9. Rome Saith: Fullness of Salvation Only Through the Catholic Church 10. Rome Saith: Purgatory Necessary After Death for Final Purification 11. Rome Saith: Transubstantiation Changes the Bread and Wine Into Christ 12. Rome Saith: All Mortal Sins Must Be Confessed to a Priest 13. Rome Saith: Justification of the Veneration of Icons 14. Conclusion COME ON PHAM! LET'S DO THIS! one reason why i wanted an apologetics board is so that we could do stuff like this. i can make a thread for each section. one person can take a section or a couple sections--but he/she isn't doing it alone. we can ALL help. PLUS, there's no rush or time limit. we can ALL just work on it until it gets done, like a group project. i really think that something like this will bring us all together and allow us to learn a great deal from each other. but, this all depends on you. so.......... what do u think? holla back, phatcatholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foundsheep Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 Actually this sounds like a job for Ironmonk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 THis can wait until AFTER CHristmas, it is December 20th you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted December 20, 2003 Author Share Posted December 20, 2003 i know it can wait.........that's cool w/ me...............btw, where is ironmonk? and katholikos? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicAndFanatical Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 oh wow, that site is weak man.. he quotes scriptures that defend the supremacy of the Pope, then the next sentence is "What does Scriptures say about this?" then goes into his anti-catholic babble, but he just quoted scriptures to support it, why then ask "What does scripture say about this?" when he just said what scriptures say about this and it fits perfectly to Church teachings..he's a loon. And his arguement about Mary's Perpetual Virginity is nonsense, typical stuff. he cant fathom the fact that Mary HAD to be sinless for her to give birth to God. Why would the God of the Universe want to be born in a woman with sin on her? God hates sin, he wouldnt, he would cleanse her and make her like Eve was before the fall, sinless. Since Mary is the New Eve, who brought life to the world, she is to be like the Old Eve, who brought death to the world, sinless. Why is that so hard to figure out? Then he goes on to say that Mary could not be an ever-virgin because scriptures say she didnt know joseph UNTIL the first-born..but he left off some key words, Jesus wasnt only the first-born, but the ONLY BEGOTTEN son, To be a Begotten Son, you are to be the ONLY son. Read my Perpetual Virginity article in the Apologetics Section based off St Aquinas In talking about Purgatory he refers to a misunderstanding in Christs Judgment, he is correct that after Death there is Judgement, but he is forgetting that 'Nothing unclean shall enter Heaven'. And if one was to die with even a slight blemish of sin on their soul they cannot enter heaven, so who then can enter heaven? Purgatory is not mentioned in Scriptures but another life is. In Matthew 12:32 Sins of the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this age or the next. So where is He Talking about? In Heaven all is forgiven and there is no need for forgiveness there, Cant be Hell because you are damned in Hell and there is no chance of coming back. Only a third option can be possible. This Third Option, where we suffer loss, but saved as through fire (1 Cor. 3:15), was named Purgatory. Because we are Purged of our blemish of sins. Like Gold needs to be purified by being heated up to get its blemishs out. We all fall short in many aspects (James 3:2), so Christ has a way to save us if we die with slight sin on our souls. In speaking of Confession, he totally forgot to mention what Scriptures say "Receive the Holy Spirit, whos sins you forgive, they are forgiven, whos sins you hold bound, will be held bound". Christ said this to the Apostles, not to all of us. Only the ordained are allowed to forgive sins. So did this special gift from God go away when the Apostles died? No, in Acts 1 you see an example of Apostolic Succession, they found a person to take the place of Judas. Matthias, now is an Apostle, given all the gifts that the Apostles were given by Christ - the Holy Spirit, the authority to distribute the sacrements like anointing, the Eucharist and confession. All the successors have the same Authority that the Apostles have. which was God's plan. On Icons: Â The seventh ecumenical council at Nicaea (787) justified against the iconoclasts the veneration of icons" (Catechism, 2131). Does this NOT say that we are against veneration of icons? So why does he dispute like it says we venerate Icons? I think he misread this. Because he goes on to say that we venerate the icons where only God should be venerated. I have no clue why he even went there because we dont worship icons, as you can see my from quote, the Church doesnt teach that. Im going to email him this in a few. Just thought Id share it with my pham first. This guy took a part of the Catechism and tried to dispute it. His arguements are weak and in one area he would show scripture to support the CHurch then the next sentence he would forget he just showed proof of us then ask "What does scripture say?" - well duh, you just told us what Scriptures say. Ill keep ya posted. CatholicAndFanatical Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 i know it can wait.........that's cool w/ me...............btw, where is ironmonk? and katholikos? Ironmonk seems to have lost interest in this site, from what he's told me. We should encourage him to come back! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PedroX Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 Catholic and Fanatical, The passage that you quoted mentions Iconoclasts. Those were people who went around smashing statues and destroying icons. The catechism is actually saying that they (the Iconoclasts) were wrong, not the other way around. Otherwise, you seem right on target. Keep up the good work. peace... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicAndFanatical Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 ew no kidding..ok, guess I misread it..um..uh.yea.. ok, well nevermind..hehe..boi i feel dumb :leave: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IXpenguin21 Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 there are over 400 views on this post... that's incredible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary's Knight, La Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 i agree with waiting till after Christmas but when it's time let me know i'll be willing to take a section Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 i know it can wait.........that's cool w/ me...............btw, where is ironmonk? and katholikos? Ironmonk is unhappy and kat has been quite ill. Why doesn't everbody send him a Christmas get-well card? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted December 20, 2003 Author Share Posted December 20, 2003 hey pham, thanks for the response so far. if u want, i can start making threads for each section in the apologetics board. i can also stop making threads for the reference section--for now anyway--so we don't have 50 million threads all over the place. what do u all think? holla back, phatcatholic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foundsheep Posted December 21, 2003 Share Posted December 21, 2003 Do ya thing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hopeful1 Posted December 21, 2003 Share Posted December 21, 2003 Ironmonk seems to have lost interest in this site, from what he's told me. We should encourage him to come back! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :freak: :sadder: Say IT AIN'T SO. Ironmonk was like my hero on here too PLEASE COME BACK IRONMONK!!!! we wuv you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin D Posted December 21, 2003 Share Posted December 21, 2003 NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :freak: :sadder: Say IT AIN'T SO. Ironmonk was like my hero on here too PLEASE COME BACK IRONMONK!!!! we wuv you! Ironmonk, gone!? This can't be true... :freak: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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