Reformation

[phatcatholic]

i'm siding w/ cmom on this one. i honestly don't see how any amount of good can come from the division and the splintering of Christ's Church. i doubt the words "the reformation was a good thing. really" will EVER come out of my mouth as long as i live. you know it broke God's heart when he saw thousands and thousands of people turn their back on his Church. if more people would have held on to the Truth of the Church and reformed it the way St. Francis of Assisi did--instead of allowing themselves to be scandalized by behavior--then we wouldn't need a counter-reformation or maybe even a vatican II. and don't tell me, "well you don't know what its like to live in a time like that. you would have left too." i mean--hello--the behavior of the church in recent years hasn't necessarily been cherubic. but i stand firm and hold fast to the One True Church until the day i die.

the mere idea that the reformation was a good thing is practically offensive to me.

(btw, this is what happens when u write a post from ur heart instead of ur head!)

pax christi,

phatcatholic

[foundsheep]

GO TEAM GO!

[bookofjohn]

Hi phatcatholic

First, Let me ask you this question:

Did God's heart broke when He sent His ONLY Son to die for our sins?

Did God knew that Jesus was going to be humiliated by so MANY people?

From my point of view, the Father of course felt the pain of sending His Son(Jesus) to die for us, but anyway He did it because to help us attain salvation.

Second, was what that was going to happened to Jesus prophesied in the OT?

Again, the answer would be YES! (e.g. Isaiah 53)

That being said. Let me go onto my concluding point.

2Thess2:3, was a prophecy on the Reformation. And look, it did happen. But the Church still stands until today! Anyway, the Reformation can be seen that we lost the battle.. but as Christ promised us, we will win the war! [Matt16:18]

Although we see that it is bad that people broke off from the Church BUT isn't it worse when Christ suffered and died? Where sin abounds, grace abounds ^_^

Peace :lol:

[foundsheep]

No. For a football team can be losing badly in the first thee quarters, and then pick up, change its lineup of players in the fourth quarter and then emerge victorius. A Protestant would use this analogy to say that the Roman Church fell into apostasy, but that the Church recovered itself, reformed, and will emerge victorious when Christ comes again, but that the apostate church (in their view, the Roman Church) is doomed to perdition.

Then why would have Jesus told Paul ,messing with them is like messing with me?

[bookofjohn]

Hi foundsheep

Sorry, i do not understand your post. Who told Paul what exactly?

[foundsheep]

I edited that John sorry,

I was using this:

Acts26:13

13

At midday, along the way, O king, I saw a light from the sky, brighter than the sun, shining around me and my traveling companions.

14

We all fell to the ground and I heard a voice saying to me in Hebrew, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? It is hard for you to kick against the goad.' 3

15

And I said, 'Who are you, sir?' And the Lord replied, 'I am Jesus whom you are persecuting.

16

Get up now, and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you as a servant and witness of what you have seen (of me) and what you will be shown.

[ICTHUS]

Notice, I said "fell into apostasy". A Reformed Protestant would hold that the Roman Church did not start to get into hot water with her doctrine until about a century or two before the Reformation, and that that apostasy culminated during the time of the Reformation. A Reformed Protestant would also claim that the Church needed to be reformed from the outside, for, all of the people attempting to bring the Church back to the Apostolic doctrines of the true Gospel, had been excommunicated.

[foundsheep]

That sounds like excuses. Reformation no matter how you put it, means people gave up on the church and started a new one. If they where truly just reformed those churches would have not discontinued church practices and beliefs,just change authority. But then again who where they to change authority.

[cmotherofpirl]

2Thess2:3, was a prophecy on the Reformation. And look, it did happen. But the Church still stands until today! Anyway, the Reformation can be seen that we lost the battle.. but as Christ promised us, we will win the war! [Matt16:18]

Although we see that it is bad that people broke off from the Church BUT isn't it worse when Christ suffered and died? Where sin abounds, grace abounds ^_^

Peace

No it wasn't,

it simply pointed out the idiots are coming.

Every generation has its quota.

To say it points to the deformation is to twist SCripture to please yourself.

[PedroX]

I would like to suggest that there have been many "reform" movements within the history of the Church. Most religious orders were formed due to "reform" movements. The Council of Trent could be viewed in some ways as a "reform". To say that reform means the gates of Hell have prevailed is not neccessarily true. To say the the formation of the Protestant heresy was neccessary or good, is also not neccessarily true.

Discuss amongst yourselves.

peace...

[bookofjohn]

Hi cmotherofpirl

I did not twist the Scriptures because my explanation of 2Thess2:3 is not a heresy nor does it contradict the Church's teaching. ^_^

Of course, I did not agree that the heresy as the result of the Protestant reformation was necessary.

Anyway, if one is to say that accepting Reformation contradicts Matt16:18, that would be heresy because that implies that God made a mistake. But we know God ALWAYS right. So Reformation has nothing to do with Matt16:18, rather it ties more closely to 2Thess2:3.

:lol:

Edited December 21, 2003 by bookofjohn

[ICTHUS]

That sounds like excuses. Reformation no matter how you put it, means people gave up on the church and started a new one. If they where truly just reformed those churches would have not discontinued church practices and beliefs,just change authority. But then again who where they to change authority.

But, what if the Church practises and beliefs were apostate? Remember, they were protesting the Roman Church because they felt she was thoroughly apostate, in every way, including doctrine and practise.

[foundsheep]

Heres what I have for a definition of apostate or apostasy:

1 : renunciation of a religious faith

2 : abandonment of a previous loyalty :

So by saying the Church did this you are still saying the gates of hell have prevailed, or better yet saying I givin up. So I would say the people that did the so called "reformation" fell into apostate. To Give up on Christ Church is to give up Christ Body and Blood.

[geetarplayer]

A little off subject, but...

From what I can tell from bookofjohn's posts and his great usage of smileys, I assume you are a very pleasant person who is easily liked! Welcome to phatmass!

-Mark

[jasJis]

Interesting topic.

My opinion is that if the Protestant Reformation hadn't had happened, then phatmass.com and lifeteen.com would have happened decades ago. The result of the Protestant Reformation was that millions of good Chrisitians took their God give Graces elsewhere and did not use them to serve God's Church. It defeats logic to think that God caused a crippling to effect a healing. God always leads His Church to constant Renewal because it's a living Church.

Reformation of behaviors of some Church behaviours were needed. But they were aberations, not symptoms of a fundamental illness. People who leave the Church do so because they want their will be done and really aren't trusting that God's will will be accomplished in His good time.