foundsheep Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 I had a good conversation with a friend of mine that is not Catholic. Something we both actually agreed on and has left him in thinking is------ If one is in a Reformed Church,which could equate to the entire protestant population, or one believes reformation needed to take place against the church, wouldnt that be going against the scripture of "The gates of hell shall not prevail"? Would accepting reformation mean you are contradicting the Book of Matthew? Your thoughts Please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 Yep and also the scriptures of those who come and try to teach false doctrines. Remember reformation is a protestant term, we catholics have tradiontally called it a revolution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bookofjohn Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 Hi foundsheep! Actually there was a prophecy in 2Thess2:3 ("Let no one deceive you in any way. For unless the apostasy comes first and the lawless one is revealed, 3 the one doomed to perdition..") which speaks of the Protestant Reformation or the Revolution that happened. And Matt 16:18("And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.") was a promise by Jesus to the us that the Catholic Church will stand on this earth untill the day He comes. Therefore, accepting the Reformation will not contradict the book of Matthew, rather it fulfills the verse in 2Thess2:3 Interesting huh? I believe that the Reformation was necessary at that point of time because the people in the Catholic Church was too complacent or too comfortable with themself. Look, what the Reformation brought the Catholic Church... the Counter-Reformation, which gave birth to one of the most famous saints; St. Ignatius of Loyola(which started the Order of the Jesuits)! ^_^ BookOfJohn <>< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 Hardly. If you want to do it that way what about gnostisism, arianism, nestorianism and all the other heresies which came long before the protestant revolution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Just Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 Would accepting reformation mean you are contradicting the Book of Matthew? Your thoughts Please. Yes that would mean calling Jesus a Liar. Because basically they are saying the Gates of Hell prevailed. Ever since the 1500's thousands upon thousands of Protestants have been "Re-Inventing the Wheel" Claiming new revelation. But that's not the way the truth and the life, The Eucharist is. Jesus Christ the Lamb of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bookofjohn Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 Hardly. If you want to do it that way what about gnostisism, arianism, nestorianism and all the other heresies which came long before the protestant revolution. Hi cmotherofpirl! Those were the false teachings Jesus warned us about. "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?..." -Matt 7:15-16- Anyway, the Reformation is not all bad. Really. If not for the Reformation, do you think there would be Vatican II(the Jesuits)? I don't think there would even be Phatmass.com or Lifeteen.com! The "fruits"(numerous Counter-reformation Saints, revival, etc..) we see today is from the "tree"(Catholic Church) that gets the nourishment from the "compost"(Reformation)! I agree that the Reformation had brought lots of "inconveniences" to the Church.. haha, i.e. heresies; look at it this way.. it is through these heresies that we learn that our faith is true and we get deeper into our faith, and of course fall in love with Jesus even more.. as we get to know Him ^_^ Our God is truly an amesome God! :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 Anyway, the Reformation is not all bad. Really. If not for the Reformation, do you think there would be Vatican II(the Jesuits)? I don't think there would even be Phatmass.com or Lifeteen.com! The "fruits"(numerous Counter-reformation Saints, revival, etc..) we see today is from the "tree"(Catholic Church) that gets the nourishment from the "compost"(Reformation)! I agree that the Reformation had brought lots of "inconveniences" to the Church.. haha, i.e. heresies; look at it this way.. it is through these heresies that we learn that our faith is true and we get deeper into our faith, and of course fall in love with Jesus even more.. as we get to know Him ^_^ Our God is truly an amesome God! Well, you know what they say: "God writes straight with crooked lines." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicAndFanatical Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 why wouldnt there be? I think the Reformation was Satan trying to destroy the Church that Christ founded. I agree there were some issues in the Church at the time of Martin Luther, but a Reformation did not need to be taken. Martin Luther was full of hate, antisemetic, he played with his own poo. He had issues. What if the Reformation never happened? Everyone would still be Catholic like it was before the Reformation. Phatmass would still be here, vatican 2 would still be here. You are right that Matt 7:15-16 reflects the Reformers and such, but did people listen? No, because had they of listened they wouldnt of followed Him and others to leave Christs Church, they would of stayed and held fast to the Teachings of the One True Church. 2 Thess2:3 is interesting though, Ill have to add that to my Authority argument. God Bless, CatholicAndFanatical Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicAndFanatical Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 HI DAVE!! HAPPY SATURDAY!!! :fluffy air extraction: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bookofjohn Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 Hi CatholicAndFanatical As for whether phatmass will be still here if there was no Reformation, i cannot be certain. But one thing i am sure of is Vatican II, will most probably not exist if not for the Reformation because of the fact that St. Ignatius(the founder of the Jesuits; the order that initiated Vatican II) was in the Counter-Reformation. No Reformation, therefore there would be no Counter-Reformation. No Counter-Reformation therefore there would not be St. Ignatius in it. And probably there would not even be a revival untill now.. It is that simple. I believe that we Catholics have much to learn from the Protestants; in terms of evangelism, praise & worship, ministry and revival! At first I was really really conservative in accepting Protestant materials and ideas, but now I am very open to accept ideas that could help the Church grow! The Catholic Charismatic Renewal was one of the movements in the Church that was triggered by the Reformation or rather the effects of the Reformation. ^_^ Whether the Reformation is the work of Mr. S. A. TAN, I am not very sure because I never like to give him credit.. haha.. but I sure do agree with Dave.. "God writes straight with crooked lines" Peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foundsheep Posted December 20, 2003 Author Share Posted December 20, 2003 I get B of J's point. I think. Heres an example, Lets say you have a company. And the guy in charge of the company treats his employees kind of bad and with little consideration. They all start to Leave and Quit. So You change your attitude and start taking care of those employees. The ones that stayed are very happy and even some of the old ones comeback. But yet there are those that remain angry and stay away. So did reformation help us re-evaluate? Is this a good analogy? peace b wit ya essay foundsheep :loco: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary's Knight, La Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 CMom actually I have to agree with both you and B of J, each time heresy (false teachers) came along the church was forced to dig into the deposit of faith and refine itself. and in each case it came out better. the unfortunate side effect of the reformation was the myriads of sects that split away from the whole truth. Now that the church has refined itself on those issues it must be true to itself so that those who split away will either eventually come home seeking authentic Christianity, or will more fully seperate themself from the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bookofjohn Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 I get B of J's point. I think. Heres an example, Lets say you have a company. And the guy in charge of the company treats his employees kind of bad and with little consideration. They all start to Leave and Quit. So You change your attitude and start taking care of those employees. The ones that stayed are very happy and even some of the old ones comeback. But yet there are those that remain angry and stay away. So did reformation help us re-evaluate? Is this a good analogy? peace b wit ya That is a pretty good analogy. And yes, the reformation really helped the Church to re-evaluate; that is why we have the Counter-Reformation. ^_^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 wouldnt that be going against the scripture of "The gates of hell shall not prevail"? Would accepting reformation mean you are contradicting the Book of Matthew? Your thoughts Please. No. For a football team can be losing badly in the first thee quarters, and then pick up, change its lineup of players in the fourth quarter and then emerge victorius. A Protestant would use this analogy to say that the Roman Church fell into apostasy, but that the Church recovered itself, reformed, and will emerge victorious when Christ comes again, but that the apostate church (in their view, the Roman Church) is doomed to perdition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 THat contradicts scripture. Nowhere does scripture say that hell gets to lead for the first three quarters and the home team wins it the end. Not biblical. THe devil has been defeated, Jesus died for our sins, the hometeam already won. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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