Miracles

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Snarf' date='Mar 23 2006, 10:07 PM']The truth remains that there is no good reason for a Catholic to believe in Creationism when the scientific evidence is so overwhelmingly in favor of evolution and the [b]Church allows to side with it[/b].[/quote]Just a point of interest. Does the Church not also allow one to side with Creationism?

[Snarf]

This is true. But common sense more or less forbids it.

[Guest JeffCR07]

I'll take you up bro. adam.

I personally believe in evolution and, with Cardinal Schonborn, I argue that we can still see God in all of Creation without casting aside evolution.

Also, all evidence supports the idea that different languages developed naturally and gradually over time and geographical location.

Your Brother In Christ,

Jeff

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Snarf' date='Mar 23 2006, 10:50 PM']This is true.  But common sense more or less forbids it.
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So the Church validates a belief that is against common sense (note that common sense may be wrong, as in it was "common sense" at one point to think that witches weighed as much as ducks )? I am sorry I am just interested as to why one would say that it would be nonsensical to believe in something that Holy Mother Church has proclaimed as valid.

[Snarf]

It would be beyond the scope of the Church to say whether Creationism or evolution is correct, and I would never say that it falls upon her to take an official side. However, the Church says that which side you choose is irrelevant to salvation. That being said, any theological backing to Creationism is rendered null because it's obsolete. What then is necessary is to investigate origins from other venues, and the only appropriate one is science. Science has mountains of evidence in favor of evolution, and absolutely nothing to side with Creationism. "Creation Science" is a myth because it relies on evidence extraneous to empircal observation. So, in short, there is no logically sound reason to be a Creationist, whether theological or scientific.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Snarf' date='Mar 23 2006, 11:40 PM']It would be beyond the scope of the Church to say whether Creationism or evolution is correct, and I would never say that it falls upon her to take an official side.  [/quote]I think you underestimate some forms of evolution (or Creationism as well) and just what they imply. Some theories cross into matters of faith, and that is perfectly within the scope of the Church to speak on. If you maintain a theory of evolution that denies certain tenents of the deposit of faith then the Church has the authority to render that belief as incorrect. So yes it is within the scope of the Church to speak on matters of evolution insofar as they pretain to the deposit of faith. Is it within the bounds to say that evolution is scientifically impossible? Not exactly, but as I stated, the Church is perfectly within Her bounds to strike down theories that deny revealed Truth from Scripture or Tradition.

[quote] However, the Church says that which side you choose is irrelevant to salvation. That being said, any theological backing to Creationism is rendered null because it's obsolete. [/quote]You are using a minimalistic approach to theology and this should never be done. Simply because it does not pertain to matters of salvation does not mean that the search for theological truth should just be abandoned in favor of scientific hypotheses that change with the ebb and flow of the tide.

My point was to show that the Church has also accepted Creationism and to speak with more authority than the Church on this matter (such as saying that it is illogical) would be imprudent at best. In short, to say that one should be an evolutionist because the Church allows it gets you nowhere for the Church also allows the other position.

Edited March 24, 2006 by Paphnutius

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='Snarf' date='Mar 24 2006, 12:50 AM']This is true.  But common sense more or less forbids it.
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common sense! common sense tells us that people don't come back from the dead.

Christianity defies common sense in a lot of ways.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Mar 24 2006, 12:13 AM']Christianity defies common sense in a lot of ways.
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As long as we understand common sense as time conditioned and distinct from objective truth.

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Mar 24 2006, 02:18 AM']



As long as we understand common sense as time conditioned and distinct from objective truth.
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way to take common sense and make it complicated.

[rkwright]

[quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Mar 24 2006, 01:19 AM']way to take common sense and make it complicated.
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j\k I love pap

[Snarf]

Yes, there are certain caveats that a Catholic who concedes evolution must observe. Some of them require a certain amount of, yes, I'll say it--faith. For example, Catholics must believe in a distinct couple that bore the entire species, that is, no multiple lineages of homo sapiens.

[scardella]

Nature is a miracle. So there.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Mar 23 2006, 11:09 PM']Adam please define your version of creationism
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I already have. What are you trying to get at?

And as far as I know there is only one main one. I've never met anyone who denies changes within one species (such as darkening of the skin), and I know a lot of fundamentalists.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Mar 24 2006, 12:53 AM']I think you underestimate some forms of evolution (or Creationism as well) and just what they imply. Some theories cross into matters of faith, and that is perfectly within the scope of the Church to speak on. If you maintain a theory of evolution that denies certain tenents of the deposit of faith then the Church has the authority to render that belief as incorrect. So yes it is within the scope of the Church to speak on matters of evolution insofar as they pretain to the deposit of faith. Is it within the bounds to say that evolution is scientifically impossible? Not exactly, but as I stated, the Church is perfectly within Her bounds to strike down theories that deny revealed Truth from Scripture or Tradition.

You are using a minimalistic approach to theology and this should never be done. Simply because it does not pertain to matters of salvation does not mean that the search for theological truth should just be abandoned in favor of scientific hypotheses that change with the ebb and flow of the tide.

My point was to show that the Church has also accepted Creationism and to speak with more authority than the Church on this matter (such as saying that it is illogical) would be imprudent at best. In short, to say that one should be an evolutionist because the Church allows it gets you nowhere for the Church also allows the other position.
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[Brother Adam]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Mar 23 2006, 11:59 PM']I'll take you up bro. adam.

I personally believe in evolution and, with Cardinal Schonborn, I argue that we can still see God in all of Creation without casting aside evolution.

Also, all evidence supports the idea that different languages developed naturally and gradually over time and geographical location.

Your Brother In Christ,

Jeff
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So that means we can also check off the tower of babal as having never happened? That's fine. Thank you for addressing the issue.

As someone mentioned, common sense tells us that the resurrection did not happen. It is against everything that science tells us about living organisms. Doesn't common sense tell us that the Jesus story teaches us truths about the love God has for us, but truly is not a historical event?

Edited March 24, 2006 by Brother Adam