Justification

[OneForTruth]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1290769' date='Jun 8 2007, 05:49 AM']Check out James 2:18-26[/quote]

By the way, James 2 is about living/dead faith...

It simply says...useless, dead, demonic faith cannot save anyone.

James 2:14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? [b]Can that faith save him[/b]?
15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

We are looking at faith that is counterfeit here...faith that works is saving faith - faith without works is nothing. Regardless of that, those who are elect will obey Christ and will persevere to the end. This is promised in scripture.

1Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are [b]chosen[/b] 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, [b]to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood[/b]: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

Edited June 8, 2007 by OneForTruth

[kafka]

Here is an idea of predestination presented by a theologian:

Predestination and Free Will

Predestination is a simple and necessary result of the Eternal Nature of God. Heaven is with God, Who is Eternity. Those who enter Heaven dwell beyond Time and Place, with the One Eternal God. Therefore, everyone who ever will be saved and go to Heaven is there already. That is what is meant by predestination. The Elect are already in Heaven with God, and they always have been, since the beginning of the creation of Heaven (but not before Heaven was created). If you ever will get to Heaven, you are already there with God.

Some people say that there is an apparent contradiction between predestination and free will. If those who are predestined for Heaven must necessarily end up in Heaven, can they not use their free will to sin seriously and refuse to repent, and so end up in Hell? If free will can result in a person making choices, which cause them to end up in Hell, how is it that those who are predestined for Heaven have free will and yet cannot possibly end up in Hell? The solution to this apparent contradiction is simple.

Heaven is with the Eternal God, beyond Time and Place. Once someone enters Heaven, they have always been there, for Heaven is Timeless. Therefore, everyone who will ever enter this Heaven is already there, beyond Time. Everything is as if present tense to Heaven. Everyone who will ever die and leave Time to enter the first Heaven is already there, for Heaven is beyond Time.

Predestination is not a decision by God, made in advance, that certain ones will be saved and certain others will not be saved. Predestination is not the result of God foreseeing who will eventually be saved and enter Heaven. Predestination is not a gift given to some, and not to others, to necessarily end up in Heaven, no matter what they choose to do. Predestination is simply a necessary result of the existence of Heaven beyond Time. Because Heaven is not within Time, but is with the Eternal God, everyone who ever will go to the first Heaven is already there. [10]

Predestination is the fact that all those who ever will go to Heaven are already there, beyond Time. Those who are saved reach Heaven because, with their free will, they cooperated with God’s saving grace. They were predestined by God, in the sense that they have always been in Heaven, beyond Time. The Elect have always been in Heaven, since Heaven was created by God, until God takes away Heaven and earth, and makes a new Heaven and a new earth, (at the time of the general Resurrection; see Rev 21:1).

Predestination is the fact that God, as One Divine Eternal Act, is already with the Elect. Even though, from our point-of-view within Time, some of the Elect have not yet died and left Time to go to Heaven, all is complete for the One Divine Eternal Act. Predestination is the necessary result of the fact that the One Divine Eternal Act, by which we are all saved, is One and Eternal. Your salvation and your presence in Heaven with God could not possibly ever be future tense to God, because God is the One Divine Eternal Act.

When God created Time and Place, that is, when God created the Universe, Heaven already exists beyond Time and Place. And within Heaven exists the souls who have left Time and entered into Timelessness. When God created the Universe, the Elect watch from the timelessness of Heaven. When God created Adam and Eve, all those among their descendents who ever would leave Time to enter the first Heaven, yet who, within Time, had not yet even been conceived, watch from Heaven, beyond Time. When God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness….” (Gen 1:26), He says those words to the Elect in Heaven. When Moses saw the burning bush, all those who ever would be saved and enter the first Heaven watch with God, Who is Eternity. When Jesus suffered and died on the Cross, the Elect in Heaven watch His Salvific Act continually, without ceasing, in awe.

The Crucifixion is ever present tense to the Elect in Heaven. Jesus Christ continually pours out grace from the Cross, throughout all Time and all Place, and beyond Time and Place. The graces of Christ’s passion and death on the Cross pour forth to all Creation. Even those souls, who died before Christ’s Incarnation, are saved by the One Salvific Act of Christ on the Cross. Christ is God and God is Eternity; therefore, Christ on the Cross can pour forth Grace to all Creation, throughout all Time and Place, and beyond.

Taken from "Time and Eternity" Ronald Conte Jr.

[OneForTruth]

[quote name='kafka' post='1290892' date='Jun 8 2007, 11:22 AM']Here is an idea of predestination presented by a theologian:

Predestination and Free Will

Predestination is a simple and necessary result of the Eternal Nature of God...[/quote]

I would like for you to make specific comments in direct response to the scriptures I am presenting...what are they saying...

Other scriptures that allude to the choosing of individuals include...

Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; [b]and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed[/b].
John 15:16 "[b]You did not choose Me but I chose you,[/b] and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.
John 6:37 "[b]All that the Father gives Me will come to Me[/b], and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
John 6:44 "[b]No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him[/b]; and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that [b]no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father[/b]."
John 17:2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, [b]that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life[/b].
Acts 16:14 A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and [b]the Lord opened her heart to respond [/b]to the things spoken by Paul.

Vessels of wrath/goats?? - John 10:25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. 26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. Then he says: John 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

These show individuals being chosen - those appointed or ordained to eternal life believed as mentioned in Acts 13:48.

Edited June 8, 2007 by OneForTruth

[N/A Gone]

Onefortruth...I have some graduations this weekend to attend. But I have put it on my google desktop to address. You have asked some very good questions here.

[OneForTruth]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1291219' date='Jun 8 2007, 11:18 PM']Onefortruth...I have some graduations this weekend to attend. But I have put it on my google desktop to address. You have asked some very good questions here.[/quote]

I look forward to hearing from you.

[reyb]

[indent]OneforTruth,[/indent]

[indent]Let us clear this up; the subject presented by Revprodeji is about ‘Justification’. To wit, 1. Justification of a sinner before God. 2. How is man made righteous. 3. Why it is necessary (justification or whatever comes into the discussion in relation to justification), according to the doctrine and teaching of Roman Catholic Church. In the course of their (Revprodeji, Era Might, Brother Adam, Paphnutius, OneforTruth, RezaLemmyng, and Kafka,) discussion, predestination and election crop-up.[/indent]
[indent]I please you to present here the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church about the above subject/s, if you are a catholic. If not, listen to them first and then discuss with them if something is wrong with such doctrine. [/indent]
[indent]I am very much willing to discuss with you the verses herein presented but, for the sake of good ‘exchange of views’ let us start from one before we go to two. Nevertheless, you are free. [/indent]

[OneForTruth]

[quote name='reyb' post='1292437' date='Jun 10 2007, 09:31 PM'][indent]OneforTruth,[/indent]

[indent]Let us clear this up; the subject presented by Revprodeji is about ‘Justification’. To wit, 1. Justification of a sinner before God. 2. How is man made righteous. 3. Why it is necessary (justification or whatever comes into the discussion in relation to justification), according to the doctrine and teaching of Roman Catholic Church. In the course of their (Revprodeji, Era Might, Brother Adam, Paphnutius, OneforTruth, RezaLemmyng, and Kafka,) discussion, predestination and election crop-up.[/indent]
[indent]I please you to present here the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church about the above subject/s, if you are a catholic. If not, listen to them first and then discuss with them if something is wrong with such doctrine. [/indent]
[indent]I am very much willing to discuss with you the verses herein presented but, for the sake of good ‘exchange of views’ let us start from one before we go to two. Nevertheless, you are free. [/indent][/quote]

Sorry about the fact that this thread took a turn...I am new to the forum and just tried to address the discussion that was taking place. I would certainly be happy to discuss sola fide/Justification on the basis of faith alone. After we have finished what we are in the middle of, we can prayerfully discuss this topic that the thread intended to discuss. Just so you know, I am an Independent Fundamental Baptist - Calvanistically inclined.

May the Lord Guide Us into all Truth

[reyb]

[indent]OneForTruth,
May I know what is your church's teaching about Justification and Predestination. Can you give me some reading materials - as reference.
Anyway, Revprodeji mentioned about his discussion with Calvinist professor.[/indent]

[Guest FourArrows]

[quote name='OneForTruth' post='1290881' date='Jun 8 2007, 01:08 PM']Justified in James 2 is different from "justified" in Romans (Chaps 4, 5, 6, 7 - etc.)[/quote]

Actually, they are the same word: dikaioō(#1344 in Strong's lexicon)
which means:
1) to render righteous or such he ought to be

2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered

3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

Just thought I'd put that out there



About Calvinist views of Predestination and Romans 8:
Unfortunantly, people have latched onto the word "predestination without stopping to study the Scriptures surrounding it.
A Calvinist worth his salt does not believe in a double predestination. The Bible never says taht anyone is "predestined" to hell.
The word is used only with those who belong to Christ:

Romans 8:29-30 says

[center]29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son,
so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified;
and these whom He justified, He also glorified. [/center]

So, according to this passage:
Those whom God foreknew are predestined to become Christlike.
Those who are predestined to be Christlike are called.
Those who are called are justified.
Those who are justified are glorified.

This says nothing of a double predestination and the concept isn't found anywhere in Scripture.

As for "Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated" ... the writers (both the Prophet Malachi and the Apostle Paul) are referring to the Edomites when they say "Esau." The Edomites were decendants of Esau while the Israelites came from the lie of Jacob. The "love and hate" statement is about God's choice of one and disregard of the other. However, if God "hated" Esau in the way so many seem quick to suppose, why is the Bible so clear that the Edomites were greatly blessed by God? (Genesis 33:9; Genesis chapter 36)

[Katholikos]

[quote name='OneForTruth' post='1292825' date='Jun 11 2007, 12:04 PM']Just so you know, I am an Independent Fundamental Baptist - Calvanistically inclined.[/quote]

Just so we'll get to know you, is this Wiki article on IFB's accurate?

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Baptist"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Baptist[/url]

Anything you take exception to? The pastor of each IFB church is the final authority on that particular church's doctrine, except that each and every member individually is free to either agree or disagree, right? So in relality, the final authority is you? Just trying to understand. I used to be a Southern Baptist (and later an agnostic and then an atheist).

Welcome. Glad to meet you.

Likos

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='FourArrows' post='1293886' date='Jun 12 2007, 03:47 PM'][. . .]

This says nothing of a double predestination and the concept isn't found anywhere in Scripture.[/quote]
I agree that "double predestination" is not found in scripture, but Calvin said that, "By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which He determined with Himself whatever He wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, [i]but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation[/i]; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death." [John Calvin, [u]Institutes of the Christian Religion[/u], Book 3, Chapter 21, no. 5]

[OneForTruth]

[quote name='FourArrows' post='1293886' date='Jun 12 2007, 04:47 PM']Actually, they are the same word: dikaioō(#1344 in Strong's lexicon)
which means:
1) to render righteous or such he ought to be

2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered

3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be[/quote]

Which of the definitions is being used in James 2 and which of the definitions for say...Romans 8:33? 1, 2, or 3?

I will argue that they are not used the same.

[Guest FourArrows]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1294429' date='Jun 13 2007, 11:13 AM']I agree that "double predestination" is not found in scripture, but Calvin said that, "By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which He determined with Himself whatever He wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, [i]but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation[/i]; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death." [John Calvin, [u]Institutes of the Christian Religion[/u], Book 3, Chapter 21, no. 5][/quote]

Thank you very much for the quote. I disagree with Calvin's statement. (not something you hear me say very often lol)
Calvin's iInstitutes have actually been high on my wishlist for many years. I do consider myself a Calvinist, but need to get my hands on his works to see exactly what he said/believed beyond the basic TULIP that I've been taught.


[quote name='OneForTruth' post='1294473' date='Jun 13 2007, 01:10 PM']Which of the definitions is being used in James 2 and which of the definitions for say...Romans 8:33? 1, 2, or 3?

I will argue that they are not used the same.[/quote]

I will study closer. Thank you for the challenge

Just by way of some explanation: in the earlier post you said the two were not the same. I was only posting that the word used is the same word.
Of course, I am more than willing to agree that a single word may mean different things.
I think that 1 & 3 are at least very similar if not identical. If you see a difference, could you please show me?
#2 is different, of course.
As I said, I'll look at the posted Scriptures more carefully before posting again. Thanks again for this call out.

To all here ... I am no theologian by any means, and don't I know it!
I am sure I won't be able to discuss and debate with you on your levels much of the time. But I also believe that the members of the body of Christ are meant to teach, share, & learn to, with, and from each other.
So, I am here to share and learn. It's "your" forum (I am protestant) so I am determined to respect you.
I hope you can, in turn, respect that I am not here to fuel fires or come off haughty. If it ever turns that way i hope you call me on it!
But I do look forward to learning more about how Catholics believe and having discussions on points agreed upon as well as those we might disagree on.

Edited June 14, 2007 by FourArrows