Lo and Behold... a debate

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='desertwoman' date='Mar 22 2006, 07:24 AM']Hey, thanks for all of the responses.  I'm going to read through all of them and get right back at ya because I"m at work.

I have to do the send item list at the library.  While I'm up there, I"m going to pull some books to about our topic at hand.

I hope that everyone will have a wonderfull day at work or/and school.

Take care and God bless. 
[right][snapback]917624[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Check out Hail, Holy Queen if you look at any one book. It touches on the scriptural basis for all 5 major Marian doctrines.

[desertwoman]

Thanks!! I couldn't find that book, but I'll keep on looking. I havent forgotton about the responses. Work is jumping because of all of the students getting their papers ready. Whew.

But I did find a book called The Rosary by Gary Wills. Is this a cool place to start as well, or am I jumping the gun?

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='desertwoman' date='Mar 22 2006, 12:29 PM']Thanks!!  I couldn't find that book, but I'll keep on looking.  I havent forgotton about the responses.  Work is jumping because of all of the students getting their papers ready. Whew.

But I did find a book called The Rosary by Gary Wills.  Is this a cool place to start as well, or am I jumping the gun?
[right][snapback]918010[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

You can start reading where ever you feel comfortable to start reading. Just give us the chance to answer any questions you have.

[Era Might]

A word of caution: Gary Wills isn't exactly a reliable source. I'm not sure what the book is about. Just take it with a grain of salt. If you have any questions about what he has to say, ask them here, or consult the Catechism for an official answer.

Edited March 22, 2006 by Era Might

[Paphnutius]

I wish that I could remember tha author, but there is a book called "The Glory of the Rosary" or something along those lines. It is old, but awesome for it uses the paintings by Fra Angelico as a method on meditating on the mysteries.

[Quietfire]

When we find ourselves in times of trouble Mother Mary comes to us, speaking words of wisdom....


If the old Ark was the architype of the New Ark, the best thing to do is see how the Isrealites viewed the old Ark to see how we should view the New Ark. Included are some Scripture chapters and verses to check out...

1 Chronicles 16:4..Priests 'ministered before' the Ark, showing it a special reverence. It was a mere object. Mary is more deserving of our veneration.
1 Chronicles 16:37-38...More than 70 people were assigned to "minister before" and protect the Ark. Thats an impressive display of devotion.
1 Chronicles 29:20...Those who bow down while addressing Mary are simply bowing down and prostrating themselves before the Lord and before the Queen.

Meditate on those and I will give more later

Pax

[desertwoman]

So Mary is the ark of the New Covenant? I'm not going to lie to you, I"m still confused about this, but I shall re read what was given to me and come back with some questions.

The problem that I have with the IC is that Mary was conceived without sin since everyone human being born has original sin. How could this be, and how could she still remained sinless?

Here are some scriptures that always got to me about praying to Mary. Its the famous "rebuke" comments that Jesus made to Mary: Luke 11. 27-29.

This verse gets me everytime cause it seems like a flat out rebutle.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='desertwoman' date='Mar 22 2006, 08:10 PM']So Mary is the ark of the New Covenant?  I'm not going to lie to you, I"m still confused about this, but I shall re read what was given to me and come back with some questions.

The problem that I have with the IC is that Mary was conceived without sin since everyone human being born has original sin.  How could this be, and how could she still remained sinless?

Here are some scriptures that always got to me about praying to Mary.  Its the famous "rebuke" comments that Jesus made to Mary:  Luke 11. 27-29.

This verse gets me everytime cause it seems like a flat out rebutle.
[right][snapback]918498[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Mary was not born with original sin, God is her Savior, and she was saved from original sin. I really do suggest an in-depth study on this through a work, like Dr. Hahn's "Hail, Holy Queen".

27* As he said this, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, "Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts that you sucked!" 28* But he said, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!"

29* * When the crowds were increasing, he began to say, "This generation is an evil generation; it seeks a sign, but no sign shall be given to it except the sign of Jonah.

How is this a 'flat out rebuke'. I see Jesus teaching a lesson about obeying the will of God, not about Mary.

[journeyman]

Reading with interest

Luke 11:27-27

27
8 While he was speaking, a woman from the crowd called out and said to him, "Blessed is the womb that carried you and the breasts at which you nursed."
28
He replied, "Rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it."

8 [27-28] The beatitude in Luke 11:28 should not be interpreted as a rebuke of the mother of Jesus; see the note on Luke 8:21. Rather, it emphasizes (like Luke 2:35) that attentiveness to God's word is more important than biological relationship to Jesus.

[url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/luke/luke11.htm"]From the NAB[/url]

[HisChild]

Like I said before, it would be profane for something (in this case, someone) impure to carry our Lord, the Sacred. That's why she was born without sin. A good analgoy would be the 'new wine in new wineskins' story.

As for Luke 11: 27-29, a good summation is found in the footnotes one of my Bibles, which says that The beatitude in verse 28 should not be interpreted as a rebuke of the mother of Jesus. Rather, it emphasizes that attentiveness to God's words is more important than biological relationship to Jesus.
See Luke 2:35, Mary herself will not be untouched by the various reactions to the role of Jesus.

Hope that helps. God bless you

[Quietfire]

[quote]27
8 While he was speaking, a woman from the crowd called out and said to him, "Blessed is the womb that carried you and the breasts at which you nursed."
28
He replied, "Rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it."[/quote]

I had the same problem with some verses of Scipture that seemed to (how shall I describe delicately?) lessen the role of women in general. Here is the problem DW...not [b]one[/b] of these verses was ever viewed as a belittlement of women, nor ever called into judgement [i]until[/i] (and I stress..[u]until[/u]) Calvin and Luther and the likes. Lets be honest here, I have found nothing in Catholic works that proves Calvin and Luther to be right. The Church has always, from it's earliest time, shown this specific verse to mean that Jesus not only confirms his mothers blessedness, but also means to state that in addition, blessed is he (or she) who hears the word of God and observes it. In other words, Jesus knows his mom is blessed, after all, He is God, but also, in addition to the fact that she is blessed, she also said yes! to God's word.

Otherwise Jesus would have said something like, "oh no, no, no. Blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe." Now, considering she is the perfect vessel that carried and bore God in the flesh, (because nothing imperfect could do such a thing) doesnt it make sense that Jesus isnt smacking her down here, otherwise if you read it that way its like he's saying that the fact that she bore him dont mean nothing, and we know better.

I will refer to the Hitchcock Bible which has fantastic foot notes on this..(mine is 150 years old)

and I quote...
Our Savior here does not wish to deny what the woman said, but rather to [b]confirm[/b] it; indeed how could he deny, as Calvin impiously maintained, that his mother was blessed? By these words he only wishes to tell his auditors what great advantages they might obtain by attending to his words. For the Blessed Virgin, as Saint Augustine says, was more happy in having our Savior in her heart and affections than having concieved him in her womb.


Dont be led astray by words and such that were written by those who had a dislike for the Church. Listen to the truth. And think on this for a moment.
Elizabeth, who in receiving Mary for a three month visit, bowed to Mary upon arrival with a strong statement. The statement is obvious, but what most people dont think on is the fact that she [i]bowed[/i] to Mary. This would have been considered sooooo wrong in that time, yet she did it. Why?

I will give a one hint. And this is just the tip of the iceberg.
In the OT, one always bowed before the Ark of the Covenant.

Pax

[Cow of Shame]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Mar 22 2006, 01:36 PM']A word of caution: Gary Wills isn't exactly a reliable source.
[/quote]

Now, Gary Coleman....there's a name you can trust.

[desertwoman]

I found the book Hail, Holy Queen and another book by Sparrow called Blessed Among Women.

So I will begin reading these.

I'm still trying to understand and grasp all the info, but I will have to let all of this meat digest for a while.

One thing I finally understand after hours of meditation is that Mary would have to be born without sin in order to carry the God-Man, our Lord and Savior Jesus. For is she was with sin, then she wouldn't have been favored amongst women.

Now the thing thats getting me is the concept that she didn't have any other children after Jesus and she didn't sin after the birth of our savior.

I think I'm also still trying to understand Mary being the New Ark. Does this also mean that she is the New Eve?

[HisChild]

Yes, well wouldn't that make sense though? Through Eve's no and Adam's defiance, we gained original sin and lost our connection, if you will, to heaven. Through Mary's yes, and Jesus' obedience, we've gained that salvation, the bridge from earth to heaven.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='desertwoman' date='Mar 27 2006, 08:35 AM']Now the thing thats getting me is the concept that she didn't have any other children after Jesus and she didn't sin after the birth of our savior.[right][snapback]923555[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]If you had the perfect child, literally the God-man, would you really have need for any other children? The Holy Family was utterly complete with the three of them.

[quote]I think I'm also still trying to understand Mary being the New Ark.  Does this also mean that she is the New Eve?[/quote]
That is another typology applied to her, yes.