For Cam especially...

[Cam42]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Mar 26 2006, 10:49 PM']all this argument makes me tired of Catholicism.
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Considering that you are at the heart of a lot of it, Sam, I don't know why?????

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Mar 26 2006, 09:51 PM']Considering that you are at the heart of a lot of it, Sam, I don't know why?????
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i don't mean on phatmass. i mean in general. the big picture.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Mar 26 2006, 09:49 PM']all this argument makes me tired of Catholicism.
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Just the fact of if the SSPX is in question regarding their place in the Church should send up red flags all over the place. If they were not in schism (hence, the FSSP), than there would be no question of it. The support of the SSPX makes as much sense as supporting a southern baptist who hates the papacy.

[Cam42]

Hey brendan....wanna tackle the simplistic questions that I have put forth in post #41 and previous.....it should be simple for a theological giant such as yourself.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Mar 26 2006, 10:52 PM']i don't mean on phatmass. i mean in general. the big picture.
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Riiiiigggghhhhhhttttt, whatever.....I know what you meant. I somehow think that you are more at the heart of every discussion that takes place around you, Sam.

You don't know what you are talking about. We have been over this before......you have a lot of learning to do.......I suggest, again (*sigh*) that you stop with this schismatic thought and simply learn your faith, as the Church teaches it.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Mar 26 2006, 09:55 PM']Riiiiigggghhhhhhttttt, whatever.....I know what you meant.  I somehow think that you are more at the heart of every discussion that takes place around you, Sam.

You don't know what you are talking about.  We have been over this before......you have a lot of learning to do.......I suggest, again (*sigh*) that you stop with this schismatic thought and simply learn your faith, as the Church teaches it.
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sorry. i don't think i have the brain capacity to learn my faith "as the church teches it". i will just continue to be an idiot backwards, redneck, schismatic.


peace out hombres,

Sam

[Cam42]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Mar 26 2006, 11:03 PM']sorry. i don't think i have the brain capacity to learn my faith "as the church teches it".  i will just continue to be an idiot backwards, redneck, schismatic.
peace out hombres,

Sam
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What a shame.....obstinant refusal......I will pray for you.

[Paphnutius]

Sam do you have aim?

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Mar 26 2006, 10:08 PM']Sam do you have aim?
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yes. but (and i do not mean this in an offensive or mean way) i don't give it out to people i do not know.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Mar 26 2006, 09:09 PM']yes. but (and i do not mean this in an offensive or mean way) i don't give it out to people i do not know.
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All this time you have been with me, and you know me not?

j/k. That is understandable.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Mar 26 2006, 10:10 PM']All this time you have been with me, and you know me not?

j/k. That is understandable.
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[brendan1104]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Mar 26 2006, 10:48 PM']btw, how about a simple dissertation from you on Dogmatic theology as defined by Ott.  I would be intereseted in know your thoughts......not some canned cut and paste.  How about a 1000 word essay.  That should suffice to start.
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how long do i have to complete it? i haven't read ott in about a year and a half. give me until next week at least i'll need to review.

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Mar 26 2006, 11:09 PM']yes. but (and i do not mean this in an offensive or mean way) i don't give it out to people i do not know.
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e-mail me with it. i need to speak to you.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='brendan1104' date='Mar 27 2006, 07:46 PM']how long do i have to complete it? i haven't read ott in about a year and a half. give me until next week at least i'll need to review.
e-mail me with it. i need to speak to you.
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I just emailed you.

[Dave]

[quote name='brendan1104' date='Mar 26 2006, 09:31 PM']Ok Dave. Would like to reference and further support /prove your claims? I didn't know you were a theologian. You must be very busy studying. Rahner? Congar? Or Augustine, Aquinas, Bonaventure, or even simple works/studies from Ott or Denzinger? How about the Ottaviani intervention? At least Msgr. Gamber, right? Please enlighten us.
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I'm gonna divide this up into about 3 posts, as for some reason, twice already my computer has screwed up as I've been typing ... so if it acts up again at least I won't be losing the entire post again.

First, the Ottaviani Intervention ... did you know that Cardinal Ottaviani expressed his misgivings about the Novus Ordo Mass BEFORE it was finalized and then later RETRACTED his intervention? Here's what he says:

[quote]"I have REJOICED PROFOUNDLY to read the Discourse by the Holy Father on the question of the new Ordo Missae, and ESPECIALLY THE DOCTRINAL PRECISIONS CONTAINED IN HIS DISCOURSES at the public Audiences of November 19 and 26, after which I believe, NO ONE CAN ANY LONGER BE GENUINELY SCANDALIZED. As for the rest, a prudent and intelligent catechesis must be undertaken to solve some legitimate perplexities which the text is capable of arousing. In this sense I wish your 'Doctrinal Note' [on the Pauline Rite Mass] and the activity of the Militia Sanctae Mariae WIDE DIFFUSION AND SUCCESS." (Whitehead, 129, Letter from his eminence Alfredo Cardinal Ottaviani to Dom Gerard Lafond, O.S.B., in Documentation Catholique, #67, 1970, pages 215-216 and 343) [/quote]

Later he said:

[quote]The Beauty of the Church is equally resplendent in the variety of the liturgical rites which enrich her divine cult-when they are legitimate and conform to the faith. Precisely the LEGITIMACY OF THEIR ORIGIN PROTECTS AND GUARDS THEM AGAINST INFILTRATION OF ERRORS. . . .The PURITY AND UNITY OF THE FAITH is in this manner also UPHELD BY THE SUPREME MAGISTERIUM OF THE POPE THROUGH THE LITURGICAL LAWS." (In Cruzado Espanol, May 25, 1970)[/quote]

And then even later:

[quote]"The words of Christ 'feed my sheep' are words which have been addressed only to his vicar, and it follows that whoever would wish to be counted among the Flock of Christ must submit to the Universal Pastor appointed by Christ. No one can be a exception to this rule, not even Bishops." (Whitehead, 130, From Leroy Philippe, "Pierre a Parle," Chevaliers #32, 1976). [/quote]

So dude, you're not exactly obeying the Church as Cardinal Ottaviani did! You could learn A LOT from him.

[Dave]

And now hear what Vatican I and the Council of Trent have to say about those who refuse to accept any legitimate rite of Mass (and that includes the Novus Ordo):

[quote]"If anyone should say that the Roman Pontiff has merely the function of inspection or direction but not full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole Church, not only in matters pertaining to faith and morals, but also in matters pertaining to the discipline and government of the Church throughout the entire world, or that he has only the principal share, but not the full plenitude of this supreme power; or that this power of his is not ordinary and immediate over all Churches and over each individual Church, over all shepherds and all the faithful, and over each individual one of these: let him be anathema" (Vatican Council I, Dogmatic Constitution of the Church of Christ, #3).[/quote]

Now here's what the 7th canon of the Council of Trent regarding the Mass:

[quote]“If anyone says that the ceremonies, vestments and outward signs which the Catholic Church makes use of in the celebration of Masses are incentives to impiety, rather than offices of piety; let him be anathema.” [/quote]

The Novus Ordo Mass is an approved liturgy of the Church, so according to Trent, so it CANNOT be intrinsically bad.

Thus, by refusing to accept the Novus Ordo Mass and to obey the Holy Father, as well as your making yourself an accessory to the sin of schism by praising Archbishop Lefebvre and his cronies, you have placed yourself outside the Church and are NOT in the proper state to receive the sacraments. I will pray for you big-time, as you're placing your soul in grave danger.