N/A Gone Posted March 18, 2006 Share Posted March 18, 2006 [url="http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft9508/opinion/leithart.html"]http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft9508...n/leithart.html[/url] [quote]One of the lesser-known works of John Calvin is a tract whose short title is "An Inventory of Relics." It is predominantly a sharp attack on the extremes of medieval Catholic piety-practices that I imagine many Catholics would today dismiss as empty superstitions. Samples of Christ's hair, teeth, even his foreskin were distributed across Europe, and so much of Jesus' blood had been preserved as to "be diffused over the whole world." Calvin complained that "had the most Holy Virgin yielded a more copious supply [of milk] than is given by a cow, or had she continued to nurse during her whole lifetime, she scarcely could have furnished the quantity which is exhibited." The complaint could have been written by Voltaire. Calvin's attack on relic veneration, however, was grounded in an evangelical insight that lies at the heart of the Reformation. "The first abuse," Calvin wrote, "and, as it were, the beginning of the evil, was that when Christ ought to have been sought in his Word, sacraments, and spiritual influences, the world, after its wont, clung to his garments, vests, and swaddling clothes; and thus overlooking the principal matter, followed only its accessory." In his Institutes of the Christian Religion, Calvin offered a similar critique of the liturgical tradition of the medieval Church. Formally, Calvin's argument is that many medieval ceremonies were human inventions, unwarranted by Scripture. It would be a mistake, however, to reduce his argument to a trivial quarrel over the warrant for this vestment or that gesture. Calvin's principal concern was evangelical and pastoral; he wished to direct sinners to that "place" where they could encounter the living God. Ceremonies, he argued, "to be exercises of piety, ought to lead us straight to Christ." Ceremonies and devotional practices that fail this test are best removed from the Church[/quote] interesting article...thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brendan1104 Posted March 18, 2006 Share Posted March 18, 2006 [quote name='Revprodeji' date='Mar 17 2006, 09:38 PM'][url="http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft9508/opinion/leithart.html"]http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft9508...n/leithart.html[/url] interesting article...thoughts? [right][snapback]914310[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Calvin is burning in hell as we speak. Waste of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N/A Gone Posted March 18, 2006 Author Share Posted March 18, 2006 have you seen him? the claim against relics is something we should be more educated against rather than simply damning someone. Im not sure if calvin is in hell...I dont know him I havent got a letter in a while, I have read much of his writings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mateo el Feo Posted March 18, 2006 Share Posted March 18, 2006 (edited) [quote name='brendan1104' date='Mar 17 2006, 08:39 PM']Calvin is burning in hell as we speak. Waste of time. [right][snapback]914311[/snapback][/right] [/quote] It's not his fault...he was predestined to hell. LOL. Sorry, I couldn't resist. Anyway, I skimmed through the article. I will accept one of the points made in the article. That is, Catholicism has a large number of [i]cultural [/i]adherents, and the ignorance of so many Catholics about the Christian Faith can be quite disheartening. Edited March 18, 2006 by Mateo el Feo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brendan1104 Posted March 18, 2006 Share Posted March 18, 2006 [quote name='Revprodeji' date='Mar 17 2006, 09:45 PM']have you seen him? the claim against relics is something we should be more educated against rather than simply damning someone. Im not sure if calvin is in hell...I dont know him I havent got a letter in a while, I have read much of his writings [right][snapback]914313[/snapback][/right] [/quote] He died outside the true Church which he hated and lead others out of... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted March 18, 2006 Share Posted March 18, 2006 [quote name='Revprodeji' date='Mar 17 2006, 08:38 PM'][url="http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft9508/opinion/leithart.html"]http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft9508...n/leithart.html[/url] interesting article...thoughts? [right][snapback]914310[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I read what you posted, not the whole article though... I think to a certain degree Calvin has a point. Getting so worked up on relics and missing the true Body of Christ in the mass I would say is wrong. But that seems to be something of the Middle Ages. I don't think relics are given the lofty position they once held. Christ gave us the sacraments and his Church to carry on His mission. If he was more concerned with things like His garments He would have probably gotten off the cross and made the soldiers stop gambling for His clothes... However, it doesn't mean that we are to just brush aside these things as if they are nothing. It can bring people closer to Christ, and thats always a good thing. I think I had a topic on the Shroud of Tourin a while back, and the feeling I got from people was that it doesn't really matter if its authentic, it brings people to Christ and thats good. I do disagree with what Calvin says that the relics and their ceremonies are bad because they are unscriptural... Obviously most Catholics are going to have a problem with that. I have no problems with the last line in your quote, I actually somewhat agree with it "Ceremonies, he argued, "to be exercises of piety, ought to lead us straight to Christ." Ceremonies and devotional practices that fail this test are best removed from the Church" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N/A Gone Posted March 18, 2006 Author Share Posted March 18, 2006 brendan,. we cant judge his own salvation. The church he knew was much different than the church of today. How much of calvin have you read? I have read a bit, and I have read a ton of luther and I would almost be offended to assume he is in hell. It is not our place to judge where he was at with God. It wasnt that he hated christ and made people atheists. he saw problems in the church that were turning people away from christ and he acted on them. We dont have those problems today, so we cant relate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N/A Gone Posted March 18, 2006 Author Share Posted March 18, 2006 How did u get a phisy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brendan1104 Posted March 18, 2006 Share Posted March 18, 2006 [quote name='Revprodeji' date='Mar 17 2006, 10:31 PM']How did u get a phisy? [right][snapback]914328[/snapback][/right] [/quote] For being a rad trad. Night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted March 18, 2006 Share Posted March 18, 2006 Luther is burning in hell too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted March 18, 2006 Share Posted March 18, 2006 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Mar 17 2006, 09:45 PM']Luther is burning in hell too. [right][snapback]914335[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Thank God you're not God... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JeffCR07 Posted March 18, 2006 Share Posted March 18, 2006 Hey, how about instead of deciding who is in Hell and who isn't (which Holy Mother Church herself has never made a dogmatic declaration on), we just answer Rev's question. Now, the problem with Calvin's approach (and that of many of the reformers) is twofold. First, it makes a faulty assumption. That assumption is that in order for something to be correct, it must be in Scripture. We must be fair here, and point out that at the time that Calvin et all were writing, there was an explosion in scriptural studies, and so the emphasis on the text was understandable. However, in the excitement of new textual learning, they left behind the theological understanding that was present when the scriptures themselves were being written, gathered, and canonically established: the authority of the Church and Tradition is equally important. So, in a sense, the first error of Calvin's is that he lost the forest for the trees - he focused so much on text that he could no longer see the authority and tradition from whence they sprang. The second error that Calvin makes is that of creating a false dichotomy. In short he says, "either relics in all their medieval superstitious glory [i]or[/i] no relics at all," and "either focus on the garments of Christ [i]or[/i] focus on the person of Christ." But this simply isn't a true depiction. One can focus on Christ's garments and Christ's person at the same time. Or, even more, one can focus on Christ's person [i]through[/i] Christ's garments, as did the woman who desired but to touch the hem of his robe and be healed. Indeed, the Council of Trent itself showed this middle path when, in its Twenty Fifth Session, it was said "Furthermore, in the invocation of the saints, the veneration of relics, and the sacred use of images, all superstition shall be removed." In many ways, we would be right to say that, when Calvin made his either/or demands, he chose to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Your Brother In Christ, Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted March 18, 2006 Share Posted March 18, 2006 [quote name='brendan1104' date='Mar 17 2006, 08:39 PM']Calvin is burning in hell as we speak. Waste of time. [right][snapback]914311[/snapback][/right] [/quote] [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Mar 17 2006, 09:45 PM']Luther is burning in hell too. [right][snapback]914335[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Is that official Church teaching? I was under the understanding that the Church makes no presumption of the eternal damnation of any specific person and relies upon the mercy of God. Could you please site your sources for this? [quote name='Mateo el Feo' date='Mar 17 2006, 08:51 PM']It's not his fault...he was predestined to hell. LOL. Sorry, I couldn't resist. [right][snapback]914314[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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