Temperal punishment in purgatory

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 22 2006, 05:39 PM']That you are not asking a clear, or logical question?

Venial sins do not destroy ones relationship with God. No sins are 'forgvien' in purgatory. Those in purgatory are going to heaven. No one in purgatory goes to hell, they simply lose any attachment to sin. The exact moment in time that sins are forgiven depends. They can be forgiven in absolution, through contrition ("Jesus and me"), during mass. If someone dies with venial sin on their soul they will go to heaven. God forgives.
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[/quote]
I thought we answered this earlier. [quote]Purgatory, while not forgiving sins, does indeed complete the perfection process in us. This is typically called sanctification. Those that die within the state of grace will eventually get to heaven although they may have to spend time in purgatory. Venial sins, even though deliberate, do not fully expel grace. Only mortal sin does this. Keep in mind that while something may not be objectively a mortal sin by its nature or end, if it is percevied as mortal by the actor then it takes on the nature of a mortal sin. Also the chief evil of venial sin, especially deliberate, is that it matures into mortal sin.

[/quote]

[jesussaves]

Neither response answered my question.

[quote]That you are not asking a clear, or logical question?

Venial sins do not destroy ones relationship with God. No sins are 'forgvien' in purgatory. Those in purgatory are going to heaven. No one in purgatory goes to hell, they simply lose any attachment to sin. The exact moment in time that sins are forgiven depends. They can be forgiven in absolution, through contrition ("Jesus and me"), during mass. If someone dies with venial sin on their soul they will go to heaven. God forgives.[/quote]

Did I stutter?
My question was if someone dies with venial sin on their soul, when and where and how does this forgiveness of the sins occur? I don't see this response answering that yet.


[quote]I thought we answered this earlier. QUOTEPurgatory, while not forgiving sins, does indeed complete the perfection process in us. This is typically called sanctification. Those that die within the state of grace will eventually get to heaven although they may have to spend time in purgatory. Venial sins, even though deliberate, do not fully expel grace. Only mortal sin does this. Keep in mind that while something may not be objectively a mortal sin by its nature or end, if it is percevied as mortal by the actor then it takes on the nature of a mortal sin. Also the chief evil of venial sin, especially deliberate, is that it matures into mortal sin. [/quote]

This doesn't answer either.

Edited March 23, 2006 by jesussaves

[Peccator]

I smell a troll ("Jesus saves" is also the name of a fiercly anti-catholic website), but I'll answer anyway...

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Mar 22 2006, 11:28 PM']My question was if someone dies with venial sin on their soul, when and where and how does this forgiveness of the sins occur? I don't see this response answering that yet.[/quote]

Let me use an anology. If say your son/daughter steals candy out of a store, you as a good parent (as God is) you'll forgive his/her...but you'll also expect them to pay back the store. (One can imagine the effect if the child never had to bare the responsibility of his/her actions)

Now in essence it is the same with Purgatory....Purgatory really has little to do with forgiveness itself...it is more the act of paying the proverbial Piper as they say..

When exactly do you get forgiven...well I can't answer for the Church since I've not really checked that up...but my bet is the moment you ask for forgiveness.

Edited March 23, 2006 by Peccator

[Paphnutius]

[quote]My question was if someone dies with venial sin on their soul, when and where and how does this forgiveness of the sins occur?[/quote]What is the exact moment that forgiveness occurs? Br. Adam said that it was subjective depending on the person and the circumstances. We cannot pin it down to one point for every person.

Keep this in mind, though, that one does not have to ask for forgiveness for each and every sin that one has committed. If we did, then everyone would be in serious trouble for we often forget our smaller failings. Do not mistake it that I am saying that one may simply pass over one's sins. No. If you know that you have sinned mortally then you are required to go to Confession. If they are venial, then the Eucharist supplies the forgiveness, granted you are in the proper disposition to receive. If one honestly forgets, however, that one has sinned venially and forgets to confess I believe that we can safely say that as long as the person has shown an earnest attempt at removing sin from his life or has repented in some other way, that he will be forgiven at the moment of or before death.

Do you believe that you must ask for forgiveness for every sin that you commit?

If yes, then what about those that you have forgotten? Are they forgiven after death?

If no, then what happens to those sins (the ones that you forgot) and their effects on you?

Edited March 23, 2006 by Paphnutius

[jesussaves]

I'm not sure why no one is answering my question. Even the quote that Pap quoted from me puts the question point blank. Yet Pap then says that the question was answered as it depends on the person, when my question speaks of venial sins on the soul when the person dies. And here is leap of answering that BroAdam did without answering:
**If someone dies with venial sin on their soul they will go to heaven. God forgives.**
You must be perfect to enter heaven. Purgatory only changes a person inwardly. This doesn't answer when or where or how the actual venial sins are forgiven when the person dies with them on his soul.

I'm not trying to argue whether or not the sins can or should or how they can be forgiven. I'm asking a simple question to understand the Catholic Church teaching. If there is no official answer, just say that. At least Raphael was teasing me that there is no official answer but that he was going to stick to his games, which is fine as he at least insinuated an answer.

Edited March 23, 2006 by jesussaves

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Mar 23 2006, 04:02 PM']At least Raphael was teasing me that there is no official answer but that he was going to stick to his games, which is fine as he at least insinuated an answer.
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Teasing? Games?

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Mar 23 2006, 02:02 PM']This doesn't answer when or where or how the actual venial sins are forgiven when the person dies with them on his soul.[/quote]Let us try this again...

[quote]My question was if someone dies with venial sin on their soul, when and where and how does this forgiveness of the sins occur?[/quote]

[quote]If one honestly forgets, however, that one has sinned venially and forgets to confess, I believe that we can safely say that as long as the person has shown an earnest attempt at removing sin from his life or has repented in some other way, that he will be forgiven at the moment of or before death.
[/quote]Am I really being that unclear or dodgy?

Edited March 24, 2006 by Paphnutius

[Peccator]

Ok, let me try agian though I'm no theology major.

[quote]The[b] Catechism of the Catholic Church [/b]speaks of sin as follows:

    [b]Sin is an offence against reason, truth, and right conscience; it is a failure in genuine love for God and neighbour cuased by a perverse attachment to certain goods[/b].... It has been defined [by St Augustine] as "an utterance, a deed, or a desire contrary to the eternal law."

    [b]Sin is an offence against God.... Sin sets itself against God's love for us and turns our hearts away from it.[/b] Like the first sin, it is disobedience, a revolt against God through the will to become "like gods," knowing and determining good and evil. Sin is thus "love of oneself even to the contempt of God."[/quote]

Ok, in order for a sin to considered grave and very serious (not venial) is has to meet these requirements:

* the matter must be "grave" (i.e. murder, rape, premarital sex, abortion, bearing false witness etc..)
* the sin must be committed with full knowledge; and
* the sin must be committed deliberately.

If it does not fall into these categories its considered venial. Venial sins damages our relationship with God, but does not break it...unlike the result of serious sin.

I suspect like mention above venial sin to be forgiven by God depended on person...but my guess is at death - especially if God knows you've tried your best to live a good life and have remained faithful to the end.

anymore I cannot tell you...

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Peccator' date='Mar 24 2006, 01:50 PM']Ok, let me try agian though I'm no theology major.
Ok, in order for a sin to considered grave and very serious (not venial) is has to meet these requirements:

* the matter must be "grave" (i.e. murder, rape, premarital sex, abortion, bearing false witness etc..)
* the sin must be committed with full knowledge; and
* the sin must be committed deliberately.

If it does not fall into these categories its considered venial. Venial sins damages our relationship with God, but does not break it...unlike the result of serious sin.

I suspect like mention above venial sin to be forgiven by God depended on person...but my guess is at death - especially if God knows you've tried your best to live a good life and have remained faithful to the end.

anymore I cannot tell you...
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Technically, "grave" is traditionally defined as a serious violation of one (or more) the Ten Commandments. The trouble for me is that there doesn't seem to be a particular definition for what a serious violation would be, except for the obvious ones.

[Peccator]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Mar 24 2006, 02:06 PM']Technically, "grave" is traditionally defined as a serious violation of one (or more) the Ten Commandments.  The trouble for me is that there doesn't seem to be a particular definition for what a serious violation would be, except for the obvious ones.
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[/quote]Indeed, I forgot to mention that..

[prodigalson]

The most important thing to remember is total self denial and complete reliance on the sacraments! ESPECIALLY confession and Eucharist. (If You Do Not eat My Body and Drink My Blood, There will be no life in you/ If you forgive their sins on earth they will be forgiven in heaven). I listened to a protestant preach on salvation once and while most of it was little bit off as far as Catholics are concerned he made a great point. It is this: If when we are called home to heaven and are asked why we deserve to be in heaven the answer has to be "Because Jesus died for me"! We did nothing to merit eternal reward except to fully rely on the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist and the effacacious absolution in confession. Along with being baptized of course. (Your faith has set you free). I was born and raised Catholic in an awesome Catholic home but for a long time I struggled with the Idea of purgatory- it just didn't make sense to me until one day my mother clarified the whole thing so well. She told me that Purgatory isn't just a place we are sent for punishment- its more than that: its purification. We are closer to God than on earth- close enough to Glory and Purity to see just how dirty we are ourselves and we cannot enter without purifying ourselves- offering one last sacrifice to the Lord before we enter the kingdom of Glory. This especially "clicked" for me when I read Dantes "Divine Comedy" and while it isn't the Word of God, its worth a read- he hits on some great points especially in the Purgatorio! Hope this helps! (remember this is just my own way of understanding Purgatory, there isn't a great deal of theology behind it, just simply understanding like a child!)

[Paphnutius]

Purgatory is where justice and mercy kiss.

[jesussaves]

[quote]If one honestly forgets, however, that one has sinned venially and forgets to confess, I believe that we can safely say that as long as the person has shown an earnest attempt at removing sin from his life or has repented in some other way, that he will be forgiven at the moment of or before death. [/quote]

[quote]Am I really being that unclear or dodgy? [/quote]

You were focusing on if the person forgets to confess etc, and not on what happens if the person has deliberate venial sins on their soul. This is possible as the definition in the Catechism of venial allows for deliberate sin. You did say that if the person "has repented in some other way" which might indicate that since it's a venial sin not taken to mortal sin level by insisting on keeping it, that they have reservation about the sin, even while it's deliberate. If this falls within your "some other way" category, I should have considered that.

Also, if that's the case, the "at the moment of" etc answers the question. I should have given you more credit.

I did ask earlier if that was official church teaching that the person would be forgiven at or before death. No one has answered this.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Mar 25 2006, 12:35 PM']You were focusing on if the person forgets to confess etc, and not on what happens if the person has deliberate venial sins on their soul. This is possible as the definition in the Catechism of venial allows for deliberate sin. You did say that if the person "has repented in some other way" which might indicate that since it's a venial sin not taken to mortal sin level by insisting on keeping it, that they have reservation about the sin, even while it's deliberate. If this falls within your "some other way" category, I should have considered that.
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[/quote]One can sin with dileberation on Monday, but by Friday have forgotten that one did so. This was the case that I was speaking of. If you are referring to one remaining obstinant in sin up to death, then I would say that person has committed a mortal sin and would require a different discussion.

[quote]I did ask earlier if that was official church teaching that the person would be forgiven at or before death. No one has answered this.
[/quote]I am unaware if it would be considered official teaching.