Temperal punishment in purgatory

[jesussaves]

So the Catholic Church teaches that purgatory is where temporal punishment for venial sins are relinquished. Does that mean if you are in a life where venial sinning is your habit when you dye, that you cannot be forgiven of those? Otherwise you'd be in hell forever because your venial and thus temporal punishment is forever.

Does the Catholic Church teach that that in heaven the venail sins simple count against your rewards? But then, I know the Catholics teach you must be perfect, then does that mean that venial sins which I condluded above can't be forgiven in purgatory cause you to go to hell?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

I'm not sure what you're getting at, but it's basically this...

Salvation is being conformed to Christ, ultimately, sharing in His divine life with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Sin gets in the way of that by filling us up so that there isn't room for Jesus to enter (it's the thorns that keep the seed from sprouting). Mortal sin is a very deliberate kind by which we completely close ourselves off to Jesus' grace. Venial sins are lesser sins whereby we do not completely close ourselves off because we either weren't aware of how big a deal it was or we were out of our minds, etc. Now, the wages of sin is death in any case, but there is eternal death from unrepented mortal sin and there is death in the sense of natural death and other suffering (keep in mind that there is a long tradition going back to the Hebrews that death is not only the end of life, but that it includes violence, anger, wrath, etc.). Therefore, there is punishment, even if not mortal, for all sin. That punishment is that we are blocked from grace, it not entirely, then somewhat.

Now, someone who dies in their venial sins, but no mortal sins, goes to heaven. They were not completely closed off to grace. However, because God wants to fill them completely with His grace, they need to be cleaned out. They've still got all that attachment to this world, all those evil inclinations and desires, those things that are filling them and not giving God all the room they have inside them. Purgatory is a naturally deserved punishment, but it is a punishment of hope. Hell is a punishment of despair, by which you may have no hope. Purgatory, however, is a punishment by which your sinful inclinations are being ripped away. Does it hurt? Sure...you're attached to the world and it hurts to get it removed...but it's like the doctor taking off the stitches...it might hurt, but boy are you glad to have them off and be healed.

Finally, no number of venial sins can equal a mortal sin, but they can make you more inclined toward sin, including mortal.

[jesussaves]

I apologize for being somewhat unclear.

The teaching is one must be perfect to enter heaven. Another teaching is that purgatory doesn't resolve sins, only temporal punishment for sin. So if you have venial sins on your soul that you commit deliberately, as it mentions is possible in that Catechism passage Brother Adam mentioned in that "when is not good sin" thread, then how does one become perfect to enter into heaven?

You seem to sort of be either saying venial sins are somewhat careless not deliberate, which isn't supported by that passage. That, or you are saying that the deliberate sins are forgiven in purgatory, which isn't the teaching of purgatory.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Mar 17 2006, 11:51 PM']The teaching is one must be perfect to enter heaven. Another teaching is that purgatory doesn't resolve sins, only temporal punishment for sin. So if you have venial sins on your soul that you commit deliberately, as it mentions is possible in that Catechism passage Brother Adam mentioned in that "when is not good sin" thread, then how does one become perfect to enter into heaven?

You seem to sort of be either saying venial sins are somewhat careless not deliberate, which isn't supported by that passage. That, or you are saying that the deliberate sins are forgiven in purgatory, which isn't the teaching of purgatory.
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[/quote]Purgatory, while not forgiving sins, does indeed complete the perfection process in us. This is typically called sanctification. Those that die within the state of grace will eventually get to heaven although they may have to spend time in purgatory. Venial sins, even though deliberate, do not fully expel grace. Only mortal sin does this. Keep in mind that while something may not be objectively a mortal sin by its nature or end, if it is percevied as mortal by the actor then it takes on the nature of a mortal sin. Also the chief evil of venial sin, especially deliberate, is that it matures into mortal sin.

[Guest JeffCR07]

Perhaps I can help shed some light on this. We must remember that all sins have two aspects to them: a personal aspect and a communal aspect. Let's say that I tell a lie. The personal aspect of that sin is that by telling a lie, I seperate myself from God. The communal aspect of that sin is that by lying, I seperate myself from (and harm) the community of believers - the Church.

Now, should I die without having commited a mortal sin, then I of course will go to heaven. However, if I have committed venial sin, then I cannot enter heaven until I am totally perfect, and that means that I have to deal with both the personal [i]and[/i] communal aspect of my venial sin. So of course God, in His Divine Mercy, forgives me of the personal aspect of my venial sin. But before I am fully sanctified and ready to enter into His Presence, I must also do penance for the communal aspect of my sin. In a certain sense, it works like this:

1.) I die with venial sin on my soul
2.) This sin offends God and hurts my relationship with him: he forgives me
3.) This sin offends the Church and hurts the Church as a whole: I do penance for that sin in proportion to how much I hurt the Church
4.) I enter heaven fully sanctified.

Purgatory is point 3.) there. It is the state of the soul as it is sanctified in preparation for entering heaven.

Your Brother In Christ,

Jeff

[jesussaves]

So in your steps, you are forgiven after you die. I still understand purgatory to be only the temporal punishment and interior change necessary even. But where are these sins forgiven because sins cannot be forgiven in purgatory and is this official church teaching these things you are telling me?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Mar 18 2006, 12:44 PM']So in your steps, you are forgiven after you die. I still understand purgatory to be only the temporal punishment and interior change necessary even. But where are these sins forgiven because sins cannot be forgiven in purgatory and is this official church teaching these things you are telling me?
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Well...not really after...sort of "at the moment of"...once we leave the earthly concept of time, we don't really know how time works...but I suppose for all practical purposes, I'd say, "beginning at the moment of death."

Here is what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says about purgatory.

[quote]1030  All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:

    As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin." From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God. The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

    Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.

1472  To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain. [/quote]

Paragraph 1031 (the second section) says that certain sins can be forgiven in the age to come (i.e. after death). There is a distinction...we cannot repent after death (precisely because the choice between good and evil is no longer presented to us). However, venial sins, even unrepented, do not keep us from Heaven. Once we die, we undergo forgiveness of them and we, because we are in the state of grace, submit to that cleansing with the great hope of seeing God.

[missionseeker]

A friend and teacher of mine who loves analogies, once told someone that it's kind of like if you were in the garden and had been there all day and were dirty and sweaty and gross and all of sudden, the queen of England or president of the U.S. or someone really famous and "important" came and wanted to visit with you. You would want to get cleaned up and presentable first.
Sin (all sin) makes our souls dirty (for the sake of the analogy) The problem with sin is the more we do it, the more we like it and so the more dirty we become. So imagine God is the one who wants us to visit Him. Do we really [i]want [/i], let alone deserve to come before Him with our souls dirty? That is what Purgatory is for.

Purgatory is such a gift. It's probably one of the greatest things God ever though of.

[jesussaves]

I do see how one might commit smaller sins even deliberately but still have reservation to do what's pleasing to God ultimately. Even in Catholic teaching, if your venial sin your refuse to relinquish, it becomes mortal sin. So I can understand how the sin might be forgivable in your teaching.


But is that teaching "at the moment of death" where your sins are forgiven official teaching of the Catholic Church?
I'm aware that the temporal dirt that is being cleansed are also known as temporal sins. That would indicate that those sins in the next age as you put it could be refering to the temporal dirt and not the actual sin. The passage of the catechism does not state where and how or when the actual sins are forgiven.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Mar 19 2006, 08:16 AM']But is that teaching "at the moment of death" where your sins are forgiven official teaching of the Catholic Church?
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To be honest, I'm not sure what the official teaching on the "when" of the matter is. I only know that it cannot occur before death because if one died in that sin, then, well, it wasn't forgiven before death...and since we're discussing the situation of dying with venial sins on one's soul... :

[jezic]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Mar 19 2006, 06:16 AM']I do see how one might commit smaller sins even deliberately but still have reservation to do what's pleasing to God ultimately. Even in Catholic teaching, if your venial sin your refuse to relinquish, it becomes mortal sin. So I can understand how the sin might be forgivable in your teaching.
But is that teaching "at the moment of death" where your sins are forgiven official teaching of the Catholic Church?
I'm aware that the temporal dirt that is being cleansed are also known as temporal sins. That would indicate that those sins in the next age as you put it could be refering to the temporal dirt and not the actual sin. The passage of the catechism does not state where and how or when the actual sins are forgiven.
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I think the direct answer to that question (about when they were forgiven) was the day Christ died. It was an eternal action that is applied progressively and retroactively to all sins.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='jezic' date='Mar 19 2006, 07:01 PM']I think the direct answer to that question (about when they were forgiven) was the day Christ died. It was an eternal action that is applied progressively and retroactively to all sins.
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We were saved at Christ's death, we are being saved now, and we will be saved at the paraousia.

[missionseeker]

ooh! I've heard that word before!


thanks for letting me feel slightly smart. lol

[jesussaves]

So you tell me, what should one conclude from the lack of a concrete answer?

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Mar 22 2006, 06:26 PM']So you tell me, what should one conclude from the lack of a concrete answer?
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That you are not asking a clear, or logical question?

Venial sins do not destroy ones relationship with God. No sins are 'forgvien' in purgatory. Those in purgatory are going to heaven. No one in purgatory goes to hell, they simply lose any attachment to sin. The exact moment in time that sins are forgiven depends. They can be forgiven in absolution, through contrition ("Jesus and me"), during mass. If someone dies with venial sin on their soul they will go to heaven. God forgives.