Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted March 29, 2006 Author Share Posted March 29, 2006 ok. i never really stole anything that was "of worth" to anyone making it a mortal sin, so i think im ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amator Veritatis Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 If they were invalid, the only recourse is a General Confession. In that Confession you would confess all the sins of your life (or at least back to the point where you made your last good Confession; practically speaking, if you have never made a good General Confession, you should confess the sins of your whole life). In the list of sins, you would mention that you have had possibly invalid Confessions, listing the reasons, the number of Confessions and circumstances. In addition, all mortal sins of one's entire life would need to be confessed including their number. This would assure the penitent of forgiveness, and the matters of doubt would be erased. The TAN pamphlet explains these things and others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amator Veritatis Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 I simply have two points. Firstly, how can you be certain that such songs were not of worth. They were at least worth the value at which they were being sold in stores as CDs, &c. Secondly, the situation you have described is, at very best, doubtful concerning whether you have committed a mortal sin and whether your Confessions were valid. Because of this, you have a moral obligation to take the safest route, for it is a matter pertaining to salvation. These points are made clearly by moral theologians. If necessary, I can post the writings of St. Alphonsus Liguori. He, of course, is not merely a moral theologian but a Doctor of the Church. By the way, I see no good in attempting to persuade a person that he has not committed a mortal sin or that he need not worry regarding the validity of his Confessions, especially when such Confessions are by no means certainly valid. The safest route must be taken when dealing with the salvation of one's soul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prose Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 What an eloquent answer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted March 29, 2006 Author Share Posted March 29, 2006 [quote name='Amator Veritatis' date='Mar 28 2006, 07:43 PM']I simply have two points. Firstly, how can you be certain that such songs were not of worth. They were at least worth the value at which they were being sold in stores as CDs, &c. Secondly, the situation you have described is, at very best, doubtful concerning whether you have committed a mortal sin and whether your Confessions were valid. Because of this, you have a moral obligation to take the safest route, for it is a matter pertaining to salvation. These points are made clearly by moral theologians. If necessary, I can post the writings of St. Alphonsus Liguori. He, of course, is not merely a moral theologian but a Doctor of the Church. By the way, I see no good in attempting to persuade a person that he has not committed a mortal sin or that he need not worry regarding the validity of his Confessions, especially when such Confessions are by no means certainly valid. The safest route must be taken when dealing with the salvation of one's soul. [right][snapback]925933[/snapback][/right] [/quote] are you saying i should make a general confession? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted March 29, 2006 Author Share Posted March 29, 2006 bump for Adam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amator Veritatis Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 Yes, that is precisely what I am saying. In such a situation, a person has a moral obligation to make a General Confession of the sins of his entire life or to make a General Confession at least far enough back to the point at which his bad Confessions began (generally far enough back to the last General Confession made before the bad Confessions). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 [quote name='Amator Veritatis' date='Mar 28 2006, 12:25 PM']If a person either fails to have a firm purpose of amendment or does not intend to make restitution prior to the Confession, he makes a bad Confession, which is invalid. For a valid Confession, five things are necessary. Firstly, the penitent must know his sins (Examination of Conscience). Secondly, he must have true contrition for them. Thirdly, he must have a firm purpose of amendment. Fourthly, he must confess his sins and receive absolution. Fifthly, he must amend his life. To amend one's life includes avoiding, at least, near and voluntary occasions of sin as well as making restitution for wrongdoing. If the penitent never intended to make restitution or never intended to avoid the near and voluntary occasions of sin, it would be a mortal sin of Presumption in addition to the rest. The safest route, and only moral route, is to make a General Confession. It is a matter of moral theology that the safest route be taken regarding salvation and the Sacraments. Because this is a matter of the salvation of your soul, you would be required to take the safest route. If you need more information on a General Confession, buy the pamphlet issued by TAN concerning the Sacrament of Confession. It is entitled [i]Confession: Its Fruitful Practice[/i]. Saint Alphonsus Liguori compiled a book, the translation of which was entitled [i]Mission Book[/i] in English, which was gave instructions for parish missions. I have a copy from the middle of the nineteenth century, but I am all but certain that this book is not being re-printed by anyone. In this book there is an extensive section on Confession and specifically on General Confession. It includes a wonderful Examination of Conscience for a General Confession. Please contact me if you would like further details. N.B., the pamphlet on Confession I mentioned earlier can be purchased online at the following link: [url="http://www.tanbooks.com/index.php/page/shop:flypage/product_id/558/keywords/general,confession/"]http://www.tanbooks.com/index.php/page/sho...ral,confession/[/url] [right][snapback]925293[/snapback][/right] [/quote]Sounds like the legal rules to a magic trick. Did you kneel or sit in a chair? At what points and how often did you make the sign of the cross? What were the exact words of your act of contrition? Not sure? Got doubts? Buy a TAN booklet, read up and study, and go back to confession and try to get it right this time because the next thing you gotta buy won't be a booklet, it'll be a series of tapes for a small monthly fee of $9.99, with a new tape shipped every 7 weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 What the heck types of magic tricks do you know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 [quote name='jasJis' date='Mar 31 2006, 01:30 PM']Sounds like the legal rules to a magic trick. Did you kneel or sit in a chair? At what points and how often did you make the sign of the cross? What were the exact words of your act of contrition? Not sure? Got doubts? Buy a TAN booklet, read up and study, and go back to confession and try to get it right this time because the next thing you gotta buy won't be a booklet, it'll be a series of tapes for a small monthly fee of $9.99, with a new tape shipped every 7 weeks. [right][snapback]929830[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Ain't that complicated. When you confess, you gotta mean it, you gotta do the penance, and a priest hasta do it. Amator Veritatas just likes to use fancy canon law words. Nothing wrong with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 [quote name='Paladin' date='Mar 31 2006, 01:00 PM']Ain't that complicated. When you confess, you gotta mean it, you gotta do the penance, and a priest hasta do it. Amator Veritatas just likes to use fancy canon law words. Nothing wrong with that. [right][snapback]929889[/snapback][/right] [/quote]I agree with that it's simpler than what AV wrote, but AV has more than the the simple 'gottas'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amator Veritatis Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 (edited) [quote]Sounds like the legal rules to a magic trick. Did you kneel or sit in a chair? At what points and how often did you make the sign of the cross? What were the exact words of your act of contrition? Not sure? Got doubts? Buy a TAN booklet, read up and study, and go back to confession and try to get it right this time because the next thing you gotta buy won't be a booklet, it'll be a series of tapes for a small monthly fee of $9.99, with a new tape shipped every 7 weeks.[/quote] Though I would not generally grace such remarks with a response, in some sense I feel obliged out of a sense of veracity to respond to this entry. Besides the obvious [i]non sequitur[/i] logical fallacy committed by your post by the implicit assertions that various acts pertain to validity when they, in fact, do not, [i]viz[/i]., regarding the posture of the penitent, the Signs of the Cross made by the penitent, you commit also the Straw Man fallacy by somehow asserting that the arguments I have presented are equivalent or comparable to the external acts described in your post. What I have said so far is merely a simplified form of the teaching of moral theologians, most notably in this case, S. Alphonsus Liguori. Your comparison of the purchase of an examination of conscience and booklet to aid in the making of good Confessions to a series of tapes with a monthly fee needs no refutation. Edited March 31, 2006 by Amator Veritatis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amator Veritatis Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 I did not realise that jasJis is a non-Catholic. With that being recognised, it would seem that a reasonable individual may trust whom he may--either a non-Catholic or a Catholic citing the teaching of a Doctor of the Church--regarding the proper principles concerning what constitutes the manner of making a good Confession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 (edited) Dude, Do you talk to you mom with that mouth? I'm not sure what you said, but I feel like I was diss'ed or something. As a 'caveat' [kewl, huh?] please note the following: "[b]Opinions and statements posted on this phorum are not meant to represent anything more than the uneducated, undocumented, and unfettered opinion of said poster. No warrenty of intelligence, education, or blood type of poster is made or intimated. It is assumed by poster that all parties reading said posts have a minimal ability to read the written work. All quotes, excerpts, and copy cat verbiage are not independently verified by any unbiased source and it is incumbent upon the reader to research and verify the veracity of said quotes, excerpts, and copy cat verbiage. Caution and fear must be exercised at all times. This poster assumes and accepts no liabilities for damages, harm, or misfortune that may befall the reader except for limitations as provided by the laws of the United States[/b]." Edited March 31, 2006 by jasJis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mateo el Feo Posted April 1, 2006 Share Posted April 1, 2006 (edited) Hi jasJis, I disagree with some of Amator Veritatis' posts; but, I'll post my disagreement later. Just to jump off the thread's topic for a second... [quote name='jasJis' date='Mar 31 2006, 01:30 PM']Sounds like the legal rules to a magic trick. Did you kneel or sit in a chair? At what points and how often did you make the sign of the cross? What were the exact words of your act of contrition? Not sure? Got doubts? Buy a TAN booklet, read up and study, and go back to confession and try to get it right this time because the next thing you gotta buy won't be a booklet, it'll be a series of tapes for a small monthly fee of $9.99, with a new tape shipped every 7 weeks. [right][snapback]929830[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Should we scoff sacramental confession because there is a certain set of "rules" involved in its practice? Only some small subset of these rules are essentials. Kneeling vs. sitting in a chair? Clearly a non-essential. How does the secular world compare? From reading your posts, it seems that you work in construction. Certainly, you would agree that jurisdictions have an endless list of "rules" for the construction of a building. States, localities, and even HOAs regulate how buildings are built, and we--whether citizens or HOA members--are forced to comply. Do I need a lawyer? How about a PE or county inspector? What licensing does the construction company need? Should I submit my designs to the county? What range of blue paint shades are permitted by my HOA? I suspect that you personally benefit by operating under the "magic rules" of construction law. You've probably got some license, like a PE, which allows you to serve your customers. This also prevents others who don't have the same piece of paper from underbidding you and taking away your work. In any event, these construction rules help to make buildings in the US safer and better than buildings in many other countries...at least, that's my opinion. And while some laws seem quite arbitrary (e.g. I can't get a deck built without a permission slip from my neighbors), others are clearly made for my benefit (e.g. prohibitions against asbestos, structural standards, etc). My beliefs are: 1) The world is full of rules. 2) In comparison to an secular endeavors, the "magic rules" of confession are extremely simple...no monthly audiotape club membership necessary. 3) Just as the world has a set of rules to be followed for building things like houses, the Church has sacraments to build up the soul. Edited April 1, 2006 by Mateo el Feo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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