The Great Flood was a global event

[Desert Walker]

Since the dawn of modern scientism, the biblical story of the great flood, and how God preserved life on a big boat, and through a man named Noah has been severely criticized, even to the point of denial that it was an actual historical event at all.

Thus I put forward the following:

The flood was a real, historical event.

The account of the flood in the Bible is the most accurate historical account in the world of that event.

It completely destroyed a GLOBAL human civilization.

It was an exercise of the justice of God.

The water of the flood covered every last centimeter of land on this planet.

Humanity, and the other living things of the land were preserved on the Ark.

It was necessary for God to assist them in what we moderns call "miraculous" ways.

All of the above can be proven as fact by investigating scripture, and by critical anlaysis of the planet's current crustal structure and the structure of the current biosphere.

And this:

The story of the flood was not a piece of literature concocted by Hebrew writers obsessed with God's justice.

The flood was not localized to the Mesopotamian region.

The anthropological, biological, geologic history of the world which we all read about in high school is, at best, a very narrow anlaysis of that history.

Edited March 16, 2006 by Desert Walker

[cmotherofpirl]

There has never been any scientific proof for a world wide flood.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Mar 16 2006, 03:02 PM']There has never been any scientific proof for a world wide flood.
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I knew the evolutionist would speak up sooner than later. Didn't you know Desert walker, even Jesus is a made up story to blind the masses. There is a "Jesus of history" and a "Jesus of faith". Anything close to a miracle must be denied.

Edited March 16, 2006 by Brother Adam

[Era Might]

The account of the flood is not limited to the Bible. In fact, there are mesopotamian sources that speak of a flood long before the book of Genesis was written.

Whether it was world-wide, I have no idea. I'm not sure if the Bible specifies.

[Brother Adam]

[quote]Objection 3: There is no evidence for such a Flood in the geologic record

What evidence would one expect from a global watery cataclysm that drowned the animals, birds and people not on the Ark?  All around the world, in rock layer after rock layer, we find billions of dead things that have been buried in water-carried mud and sand.  Their state of preservation frequently tells of rapid burial and fossilization, just like one would expect in such a flood.
Fossils
Fossil ‘graveyards’ around the world, where the bones of many animals were washed together, buried, and fossilized, are evidence for a watery cataclysm like Noah's flood.

There is abundant evidence that many of the rock strata were laid down quickly, one after the other, without significant time breaks between them.  Preservation of animal tracks, ripple marks and even raindrop marks, testifies to rapid covering of these features to enable their preservation.  Polystrate fossils (ones which traverse many strata) speak of very quick deposition of the strata.  The scarcity of erosion, soil formation, animal burrows and roots between layers also shows they must have been deposited in quick succession.  The radical deformation of thick layers of sediment without evidence of cracking or melting also shows how all the layers must have been still soft when they were bent.  Dykes (walls) and pipes (cylinders) of sandstone which connect with the same material many layers beneath show that the layers beneath must have been still soft, and contained much water.  That the sandstone could be squeezed up through cracks above to form the ‘clastic’ dykes and pipes, again shows rapid deposition of many strata.

The worldwide distribution of many geological features and rock types is also consistent with a global Flood.  The Morrison Formation is a layer of sedimentary rock that extends from Texas to Canada, clearly showing the fallacy of the still popular belief that ‘the present is the key to the past’—there are no processes occurring on Earth today that are laying down such large areas of sedimentary layers.  In reality, God’s revelation about the past is the key to understanding the present.

The limited geographic extent of unconformities (clear breaks in the sequence of deposition with different tilting of layers, etc.) is also consistent with the reality of the global Flood.  And there are many other evidences for the Flood.10,11

The problem is not the evidence but the mindset of those looking at the evidence.  One geologist testified how he never saw any evidence for the Flood—until, as a Christian, he was convinced from the Bible that the Flood must have been a global cataclysm.  Now he sees the evidence everywhere.  The Bible talks about people being corrupted in their thinking after turning their backs on God (Romans 1:18ff.) and of people being so spiritually blind that they cannot see the obvious (Acts 28:25–27). 

Evolutionist Richard Carrington, in The Story of Our Earth says:

"Of the many kinds of animals inhabiting the earth at the time vast numbers were swept completely away. Not only individuals, but whole races were destroyed. Extermination overtook the animals of the land, sea and air with equal indifference. When the holocaust was over the whole aspect of life on earth had changed[/quote]

[Gal. 5:22,23]

Biblical evidence:


The New Testament shows that its inspired writers considered a worldwide flood a real historic event. The apostle Peter wrote: “For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water” (2Peter 3:5-6).

In this passage the apostle Peter affirms the reality of a global flood. Interestingly, he states that even during his time some people had willfully forgotten this obvious truth. How much more so in our skeptical world today?

The overall content of 2Peter 3 also bears witness to the Flood’s universality.

In this prophetic chapter Peter also refers to the second coming of Jesus Christ (an event of worldwide importance in its scope, Matthew 24:30-32) and a future global cataclysm that will envelop the earth in fire. Clearly Peter’s basic perspective here is universal—not regional or local.

Jesus Christ also understood the Flood from the same global perspective. He used the Flood as an example in His teaching to illustrate an important spiritual lesson: “. . . As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man . . . until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all” (Luke 17:26-27).

We see that the Bible repeatedly uses universal terminology to describe the dimensions and devastation of the Flood. The eighth-century-B.C. Hebrew prophet Isaiah also bore witness to a universal deluge. He quoted our Creator as saying: “For this is like the waters of Noah to Me; for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah would no longer cover the earth, so have I sworn that I would not be angry with you, nor rebuke you” (Isaiah 54:9).
[b]
Consider that there have been many local floods in the world since Noah’s time. That being so, if the Flood of his day was merely local in scope too, then God would have lied in allowing more of them to happen. So if we accept the Bible and God’s promises in it, then we must conclude that the Flood of Noah’s day was not merely a local event. It was a universal flood, the likes of which have never been seen again—just as God promised. [/b]

[indescribable]

Isn't the flood theme present in a lot of religious history? Not only the Jewish tradition, but others?

[peach_cube]

Not to be a nag but seeing as I hold a degree in Geology I thought that I would chime in. Let the truth be known that I believe in an evolving (Changing) earth. However, I do not have a clear stance on the evolution of man.

Let's get started then.

[quote]Objection 3: There is no evidence for such a Flood in the geologic record

What evidence would one expect from a global watery cataclysm that drowned the animals, birds and people not on the Ark?  All around the world, in rock layer after rock layer, we find billions of dead things that have been buried in water-carried mud and sand.  Their state of preservation frequently tells of rapid burial and fossilization, just like one would expect in such a flood.
Fossils
Fossil ‘graveyards’ around the world, where the bones of many animals were washed together, buried, and fossilized, are evidence for a watery cataclysm like Noah's flood. [/quote]

Of coarse rocks are formed in 3 ways, from sediments, magma, and basically twisting and cooking existing rocks. Sedimentary rocks are the only ones that may contain fossils. They make up approximately 8% of all rocks, however they make up 66% of surface rocks. Limestone, which is often fossiliferous, is formed very slowly in oceans. In fact most rock sequences that are well "sorted" ( a progression of smaller and smaller sediments the fourther you are from the shore) indicate a slow formation process. Over time as sediments are stacked on one another they are compressed and cemented. This is actually why New Orleans needs levees and will continue to sink, the rock it is built on is not quite done being cemented and compressed.

There are of coarse evidences for rapid burial most often in landslides, both underwater and above water, and in volcanic events. Crevase splays and associated events from levees breaking have also been know to preserve fossils. The problem with the above assertion is that it leads one to believe that fossils are only preserved in the rapid burial way. Which they are not.

[quote]There is abundant evidence that many of the rock strata were laid down quickly, one after the other, without significant time breaks between them.  Preservation of animal tracks, ripple marks and even raindrop marks, testifies to rapid covering of these features to enable their preservation.  Polystrate fossils (ones which traverse many strata) speak of very quick deposition of the strata.  The scarcity of erosion, soil formation, animal burrows and roots between layers also shows they must have been deposited in quick succession.  The radical deformation of thick layers of sediment without evidence of cracking or melting also shows how all the layers must have been still soft when they were bent.  Dykes (walls) and pipes (cylinders) of sandstone which connect with the same material many layers beneath show that the layers beneath must have been still soft, and contained much water.  That the sandstone could be squeezed up through cracks above to form the ‘clastic’ dykes and pipes, again shows rapid deposition of many strata. [/quote]

I'll try to cover most things here. I actually have a large set of ripple marks and raindrop impressions they are quite cool. The raindrops I have were directly beneath a volcanic ash and the ripple marks were from a continental shelf and beneath a limestone, indicating a rise in sea level. Polystrate fossils would not really indicate a rapid burial unless it was a poor sorting event. Erosion, soil formation, roots, and animal burrows are quite rare in watery anoxic environments which are quite common for fossil formation (and can be observed today).

Radical deformation without cracking would be found in a regional metamorphism or mountain building events. Often times the cracks are not visible until after the pressure is off. The reason the rocks bend and not break is due to the other pressures of rock above it ( the pressure is so great that there is not enough room to fracture). However after the regional pressure is gone there is a form of pressure release of the rock itself and cracks form. Using strike and dip calculations throughout the Appalachians one can actually see that the pressure release cracks actually line up throughout the mountain chain indicating a regional pressure during an origenic event.

The sandstone dykes are formed due to local or regional metamorphism. Sandstone is an aquifer due to its pore space. Anyone who has well water knows that it is the best for you well. Some layers of sandstone have shale ontop of them which is impermeable and thus seals in the water. Therefore when pressure builds eventually the sandstone will pop through the shale like a zit with some of it patially dissolved due to pressure. In fact it wouldn't pop at all unless there was solid rock above it.

[quote]The worldwide distribution of many geological features and rock types is also consistent with a global Flood.  The Morrison Formation is a layer of sedimentary rock that extends from Texas to Canada, clearly showing the fallacy of the still popular belief that ‘the present is the key to the past’—there are no processes occurring on Earth today that are laying down such large areas of sedimentary layers.  In reality, God’s revelation about the past is the key to understanding the present. [/quote]

The gulf of mexico would be showing quite large srata if not for the artificial leveeing of the Mississippi. In fact all major river systems are levee artifiically at this point and few are flowing into a shallow basin. The Morrison formation itself is composed of a variety of shales and limestone that compositionally will not form in the same location of shore. As the basin was filled in the limestone was buried underneath the different shales.

[quote]The limited geographic extent of unconformities (clear breaks in the sequence of deposition with different tilting of layers, etc.) is also consistent with the reality of the global Flood.  And there are many other evidences for the Flood.10,11 [/quote]

Unconformities are caused by erosion. This erosion occurs when the rock is usually above water. The time periods for these match up nicely with ice ages when the sea level is lower.

[quote] The problem is not the evidence but the mindset of those looking at the evidence.  One geologist testified how he never saw any evidence for the Flood—until, as a Christian, he was convinced from the Bible that the Flood must have been a global cataclysm.  Now he sees the evidence everywhere.  The Bible talks about people being corrupted in their thinking after turning their backs on God (Romans 1:18ff.) and of people being so spiritually blind that they cannot see the obvious (Acts 28:25–27). [/quote]

That is a nice opinion and all but the it can also be said the mindset of those who refuse to believe geologic evidence is one that is afraid of science and will ignore logic and be ruled by emotion.

[quote] Evolutionist Richard Carrington, in The Story of Our Earth says:

"Of the many kinds of animals inhabiting the earth at the time vast numbers were swept completely away. Not only individuals, but whole races were destroyed. Extermination overtook the animals of the land, sea and air with equal indifference. When the holocaust was over the whole aspect of life on earth had changed [/quote]

Indeed. Mass extinctions tend to come every 50 million years, its been 55 million since the last one...

Honestly I think people focus too much on dinosaur fossils. They are cool and all but it gives you a skewed sense of Geology. I'll take brachiopods and trilobites over them any day.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 16 2006, 03:05 PM']I knew the evolutionist would speak up sooner than later. Didn't you know Desert walker, even Jesus is a made up story to blind the masses. There is a "Jesus of history" and a "Jesus of faith". Anything close to a miracle must be denied.
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I didn't say that Adam, and do not impune that I did.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Mar 16 2006, 03:02 PM']There has never been any scientific proof for a world wide flood.
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[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 16 2006, 03:05 PM']There is a "Jesus of history" and a "Jesus of faith". Anything close to a miracle must be denied.
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[/quote]

Don't you think you've made kind of a grand leap from one statement to the other?

[MC Just]

People have found fish bones on mountains all over the world. Whales and stuff.

Edited March 17, 2006 by MC Just

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Mar 17 2006, 04:40 PM']I didn't say that Adam, and do not impune that I did.
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He called me a communist last week. It must be the stress of impending fatherhood.

[Desert Walker]

I'll look for the source for this but:

Some time ago the US government did a satellite study of the mid-Atlantic Ridge. If you were to strip away ALL vegetation and ALL water from the planet's surface the most prominent, anomolous feature on the surface would be the mid-Atlantic Ridge. It spans, from the north to the south, the entire Atlantic Ocean, from Iceland to the tip of South Africa. This mountain range snakes past the Horn into the Indian Ocean and finally peters out among the islands of Oceana.

The researchers postulated that it was formed when the orginal crust of the planet cracked. They considered that the original crust was a completely intact spherical shell surrounding the Earth's interior (no moving tectonic plates in other words). Some gigantic force cracked open this "shell" which split the single continent of Pangea into two major sections of surface land.

The most interesting thing is what they say happened when the crust cracked open. Apparently there was a VAST "ocean" of fresh water beneath the crust, enclosed, as it were, in natural subterranean reservoir. That would explain these passages from Genesis:

"And every plant of the field before it sprung up in the earth, and every herb of the ground before it grew: for the Lord God had not rained upon the earth; and there was not a man to till the earth." (2:5)

"But [b]a spring rose out of the earth, watering all the surface of the earth[/b]." (2:6)

When the crack opened ALL of this water was forced OUT from beneath the crust. Where did the force come from? Imagine what would happen if you split a table top in half: the two halves would fall under the force of gravity. The two halves of the crust pressed the subterranean waters out in a monstrous jet like a wall of water. The researchers estimated it would have been a 10,000 foot geiser. Even more horrible was the fact that the jet of water would have had the temperature of boiling water; a boiling geiser of water spanning thousands of miles, accross nearly half the surface of the planet! For when the crust split, it split all the way to the roof of the mantle (in more than one place), allowing magma to seep up to the surface forming volcanoes.

All of this boiling water entered the Earth's atmosphere. Thus began the torrential rains which covered the entire planet with water. Beneath and above this Great Flood, the world was radically changed. The result is the world we experience today: harsh climate extremes, often terribly destructive weather patterns, catastrophic seepage of the molten material of the planet's fiery interior, drastically reduced numbers of animal and plant species.

Prior to the flood, the planet was a highly balanced garden (not Eden itself perhaps but something that was able to support such a place). We know this is true by simply looking at the extinct organisms revealed in fossils. None of the plants of the so-called Jurassic Period could possibly survive in the places where their ghostly fossils are now found. The gigantic bodies of the dinosaurs would only have been able to survive in a wetter, lusher, warmer global climate. This kind of climate only exists today at the equator and is obviously un-balanced itself.

There is scientific research to be done for the sole purpose of proving the statements of the book of Genesis. I am firmly convinced that research targeted in such a way would reveal what ACTUALLY has happened in the past, not some atheistic model of events.

[cmotherofpirl]

The best science is done by those without an axe to grind or the need to meet a pre-determined outcome.

[sidemunch88]

i like to swim