Private Revelation

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Mar 15 2006, 12:04 PM']The Catechism says:
The "Sense of the Faithful" discerns whether a private revelation is "an authentic call of Christ', not the Magisterium. The Magisterium's role is to make sure that a proposed revelation does not conflict with the Deposit of Faith, which she safeguards.
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The Bishop approves an Apparition (and the Bishop is a part of the Magisterium.

And the bishop approves the [i]authenticity [/i]of an Apparition.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Mar 15 2006, 10:04 AM']The Catechism says:
The "Sense of the Faithful" discerns whether a private revelation is "an authentic call of Christ', not the Magisterium. The Magisterium's role is to make sure that a proposed revelation does not conflict with the Deposit of Faith, which she safeguards.
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One cannot separate the sensus fidelium from the Magisterium as you have done here. Having said that I agree with your distinction regarding the role of the Magesterium in safegaurding the deposit of the faith.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Mar 15 2006, 12:10 PM']The Bishop approves an Apparition (and the Bishop is a part of the Magisterium.

And the bishop approves the [i]authenticity [/i]of an Apparition.
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He approves the public adherence to its authenticity, that is, he declares that it is credible, and may be believed.

He does not teach that it actually happened, only that it can be prudently believed that it did happen, and venerated publicly.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Mar 15 2006, 10:10 AM']The Bishop approves an Apparition (and the Bishop is a part of the Magisterium.

And the bishop approves the [i]authenticity [/i]of an Apparition.
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"Likely authenticity" is in fact what the Catechism states. I think that is the distinction Era is drawing.

Edited March 15, 2006 by thessalonian

[Era Might]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Mar 15 2006, 12:10 PM']One cannot separate the sensus fidelium from the Magisterium as you have done here.  Having said that I agree with your distinction regarding the role of the Magesterium in safegaurding the deposit of the faith.
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The faithful never constitute the Magisterium. The Magisterium receives the witness of the faithful, but they can never be confused or conflated.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Mar 15 2006, 12:12 PM']He approves the public adherence to its authenticity, that is, he declares that it is credible, and may be believed.
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No, he declares that the Apparition is "of supernatural origin" (or not, or maybe)

constat de supernaturalitae (I think), non constat de supernaturalitae, and constat non de supernaturalitae

...and when the Bishop (part of the Magisterium) gives it the go ahead, he's not saying "probably"... that's one of the middle choices.

[Era Might]

From the citation Thess gave:

[quote]This judgment is possible when there is evidence of supernatural phenomena, sound doctrine, moral probity, mental health and sound piety of the seer(s) and enduring good fruits among the faithful.[/quote]

He declares that there is "evidence" of supernatural origin, not that it is in fact of supernatural origin.

[Era Might]

Look, we can go back and forth on the minutae.

The main point is that no Catholic has to believe in a private revelation. So if you don't believe in Fatima, you don't have to go to confession.

That's the important thing.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Mar 15 2006, 10:13 AM']The faithful never constitute the Magisterium. The Magisterium receives the witness of the faithful, but they can never be confused or conflated.
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After further checking I retract my statement.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Mar 15 2006, 12:18 PM']Look, we can go back and forth on the minutae.

The main point is that no Catholic has to believe in a private revelation. So if you don't believe in Fatima, you don't have to go to confession.

That's the important thing.
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lol..

but then you wouldn't even be offering "human faith" in the approval of the Church?

[Era Might]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Mar 15 2006, 12:19 PM']lol..

but then you wouldn't even be offering "human faith" in the approval of the Church?
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Human faith is based on your own investigation of the facts, and your own exercise of the virtue of prudence.

Human faith is not obligatory, unless your conscience convicts you of it.

Divine faith, on the other hand, is obligatory, because it rests on the authority of the Church, not our own authority.

While one may disbelieve that an apparition is a true apparition, he must accept the Church's judgement that it conforms to the Church's faith and morals, whether it was a real apparition or not. This is the proper role of the Magisterium.

Like I said, all this is trivial. We've confused Brother Adam, the poor thing. The main point is that you don't have to believe in private revelations, but you should consider them with pious trust in the Church.

Edited March 15, 2006 by Era Might

[Brother Adam]

Actually, I'm glad this went to the debate table where more people read. You make a lot more sense than anyone else has been making, and so far I agree with you.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

Fair enough.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 15 2006, 10:33 AM'] . You make a lot more sense than anyone else has been making, [right][snapback]912419[/snapback][/right]
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[Era Might]