Culpability for going against Vatican II

[Dave]

In traditional Catholic circles, there are those (even those who attend indult Masses) who think the Church is wrong to promote, for example, ecumenism and religious liberty (despite what Vatican II said about them), claiming the Church condemns them. But what they don't realize is that as for ecumenism, there's true ecumenism and false ecumenism, the latter which the Church has always condemned. And they also don't realize that the type of religious liberty Vatican II promoted is NOT the same kind that the Church had condemned (and still does). The latter type concerned moral religious freedom, while the former concerned POLITICAL religious freedom (at the time a lot of Catholic countries such as Poland were Communist, and the Church didn't want the government imposing atheism). Essentially, these people disagree not with what the Church teaches but rather what they wrongly think members of the hierarchy have espoused.

And then there are those who think Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre did nothing wrong and that the SSPX isn't schismatic. Of course, praising or condoning any wrong thing someone did is to become an accessory to their sin, but then again, there's been a lot of articles and stuff written on the subject that claim (albeit falsely) that the SSPX isn't in schism, and surely those who don't know any better are falling for it.

So this brings me to a question I want to ask ... since there's been lots of confusion among many traditional-minded Catholics regarding the above topics and others (e. g. there are those who have been told and wrongly believe that the Novus Ordo Mass was composed with the help of Protestants), and probably those who believe such things don't know any better (as they've probably heard them from sources whom they don't realize are bad news), wouldn't that drastically reduce people's culpability? I don't claim to know the state of their souls, but at the same time I don't want people to lose their souls either.

[Hirsap]

[quote]there are those who have been told and wrongly believe that the Novus Ordo Mass was composed with the help of Protestants[/quote]

I thought a group of protestants were on the commission which helped deivise the New Mass? Or am I mistaken?

[Dave]

No. That's a lie that has been told and retold again and again over the years as truth. There were a few Protestants who were at Vatican II as observers, though, but nothing more.

[thessalonian]

Dave, in answer to your question we should always hope as if they are going to heaven and pray as if they are going to hell. Culpability would likely be reduced for one who is raised a traditionalist for instance and has been taught these errors. I do have a very difficult time for osmeone who has been raised in the faith and chooses these errors because they have recieved great grace along the way but if the instruction was bad one might have some lessened culpability. We cannot judge culpability.

[jswranch]

[quote name='Hirsap' date='Mar 12 2006, 06:44 PM']I thought a group of protestants were on the commission which helped deivise the New Mass? Or am I mistaken?
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I have heard this too as told from a 'un-baised' source. However, when I ask, "Can you cite where exactly the 'Protestant infiltraters' derailed the post VII decisions?" I get blank stairs, shuffling of feet and mumbling. Even if Protestants were on the comission (or simply consulted), it means nothing. I find it reasonable for the VII writers to consult non-Catholics on the VII documents before final publishing. Part of VII was to clearly explain what the church believed, taught, and held true about herself not only to Catholics but also non-catholics. I would expect educated and logical writters, with the goal of writting to all, to draft a document, give it to non-catholics, and ask "Do you understand this?" If the non-Catholic says 'no,' the writters would then go back, reword and try again. No big deal.

[disclaimer: I am not citing history with the above, I am citing logic]

[jswranch]

[quote name='Hirsap' date='Mar 12 2006, 06:44 PM']I thought a group of protestants were on the commission which helped deivise the New Mass? Or am I mistaken?
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I usually hear this argument about the Vatican II documents. There is nothing new under the sun. Chances are the the Arians probably claimed the pagans/Montanist/Donatists were on the Council of Nicea comission which helped devise the Nicean Creed.