ReinnieR Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 [quote name='Firsttorun' date='Mar 12 2006, 11:23 AM']HIM?!?!?! Since when am I a him????? [right][snapback]909417[/snapback][/right] [/quote] sorry i can't tell gender from screen names i apologize Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 Firsttorun, just so you know, if you call out a particular person in a separate thread for debate, the unwritten rule is that others should not reply. Perhaps you could do that in order to avoid the confusion of so many responses. I'd love to debate this topic, but I see you still haven't addressed the response I made about the prayers in Revelation. Furthermore, you do need to understand why we teach what we do before you can debate us. Otherwise, you're going to say things like, "that's not in the Bible," which don't matter at all to us because we are not sola scriptura (by Scripture alone) believers. Our stance is one which history proves true, that Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition go hand in hand. In fact, Sacred Scripture is a result of Sacred Tradition, not the other way around. The word was handed down from one person to another long before it was written. It is interesting that this same method was also seen in the Old Testament. The Hebrew language has no written vowels. It was absolutely necessary to read the Old Testament that you knew the stories by heart, because just by reading the text, you couldn't possibly understand what was meant. Because of that, there was a Sacred Tradition passed down, an understanding of the Scriptures of the Hebrew people. It's like the key for the lock. A lot of people try to find the key for the lock in the Scriptures themselves, but no one leaves the key with the lock, or else the lock would be useless. The key is the traditional interpretation of Scripture passed on by the Church. Just like the Hebrews passed on their interpretations and stories by word of mouth, so do we. That passing on continues. That's why the Catholic Church has definitive understandings of the Scriptures which lead us to one, solid, universal belief, while Protestants have various disagreements amongst themselves and almost never seem to agree. The Catholic Church has the key for the lock. It is Sacred Tradition. It is not the kind of tradition Jesus condemned, which was the tradition of men, the tradition that nullified the word of God. In fact, our Tradition opens up and illuminates the word of God. It keeps us close to Him, not away from Him. If you're going to come here and debate Catholics, you're going to have to accept the fact that Catholics are going to quote sources you don't want to accept. You may not have to accept them, but you should look into them, see where they come from, and see why we say that you should accept them. It is a logical fallacy to say, "prove to me that this is true...without using the sources that prove it's true." Now, if those sources are known to be phony or false, then that is one thing, but you have no reason to believe that. Instead, I ask you, listen to what we have to say and look into those sources. Don't dismiss them from the start. Finally, a word on Protestantism. Protestantism is extremely individual-based. What it did first was cut itself off from Tradition. This separated it from the previous generations in the Church. It cut them off from their fathers in the faith and made them something different. That was a temporal schism (a time-related division) because they cut themselves off from the faith that had always been held. They also cut themselves off from leaders. A great many Protestant denominations vote for their pastors and fire them when they disagree with them. This is not the way God does things. God did not ask what the people thought when He appointed Moses, and they disagreed with Moses a lot but did not fire him. The same is the case for Saul, David, Soloman, all the judges, all the kings, all the prophets. The same is the case for the Apostles, the early bishops, the early monks (St. Benedict's own monks tried to murder him...twice). God appoints people who will go out and proclaim Him. God does not, and I do not believe He has ever, asked for a vote from the people and then anointed their popular candidate. This is a personal schism (a division from persons, particularly the persons God put in authority to watch over His Church). Finally, the Protestants also cut themselves into individual regions. That's why there are thousands of "First Baptist" churches. As Brother Adam will tell you, most Baptists won't even accept the Baptisms of other Baptists. There is therefore a split between regions, between peoples. The Protestant Church is not united...it's a carved up cadaver of the Body of Christ. The hand tells the eye to go its own way, the foot tells the hand to leave. It's not supposed to be that way. That's a regional schism (a division based on region). What we see, then, is that the Protestants like cutting themselves off. Why? That's what Jesus says is the punishment for heresy...why would Protestants willingly cut themselves off from others? Because each one thinks he or she is completely right and that the others are in schism. God would not leave His Church in this state. That's why God gave us a visible Church, so that we could see the unity and know that it was the real one. That is the Catholic Church...it believes in all the same things, no matter how much some people try to mangle it. That's why we stick to the ancient rule of St. Vincent of Lerins, "Quod ubique, quod semper, quod ab omnibus" (we believe the teachings "which everywhere, always, and by everyone" have been taught). The Catholic Church has none of these schisms. We reach back to the Apostles for our belief which has been handed on to us. We reach out to other regions and share our common theology. We reach out to the theologians around the world, especially the bishops in union with the pope (which we call the "Magisterium"), for our faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 [quote name='Raphael' date='Mar 13 2006, 10:18 AM']Firsttorun, just so you know, if you call out a particular person in a separate thread for debate, the unwritten rule is that others should not reply. Perhaps you could do that in order to avoid the confusion of so many responses. I'd love to debate this topic, but I see you still haven't addressed the response I made about the prayers in Revelation. [right][snapback]910085[/snapback][/right] [/quote] good point.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maria Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 Firsttorun, (I'm not really debating with you here, so I'll continue), it seems as though you've reached the point where you think there is a possibility that saints can hear our prayers and can pray for us. Now you want some proof. Am I right? As we know, there is no scripture verse that says 'the saints in heaven hear the prayers of the saints on earth and continually intercede for them'. So it seems we're at an impass. It's a possibility, but it can't be proven, right? I suggest the way you think through this topic, then, is to ask: Is it compatible with scripture? Does it make sense within what we know of God and how He works, and of how creation works? Is the negation of it compatible with scripture? Does the negation of it make sense within what we know of God and how He works, and of how creation works? Is there a possible danger in accepting it? Is there some other authority that can confirm or deny it? I don't like it when everyone immediately jumps to the authority part, because that doesn't much help unless you've accepted the authority, and if you haven't accepted the authority, not agreeing with what it says makes it harder for you to accept it. I think people were trying to convince you that saints in heaven hearing our prayers and interceding for us is compatible with scripture and that the idea that they don't isn't compatible with scripture. When people were saying that not everything is found in scripture, I think they were saying that it's possible to say that certain things are true or aren't true even when it isn't explicitly said in scripture. And it's possible to say these things because they are compatible with scripture (etc), and their negations aren't. I hope this doesn't confuse you more. I just want to help you figure out a way to think this stuff through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 Hello, I'd like to buy an argument..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 [quote name='Firsttorun' date='Mar 12 2006, 09:11 PM']I have to agree with you again that we are suppose to pray for one another...but please give me a referance in the Bible (as in not with the added books) where it says that the saints (as in heaven) pray [right][snapback]909752[/snapback][/right] [/quote] What Cam pointed out about Revelations 6:9-11. Not only did the martyred souls pray to God, they were answered! BTW, it's not that Catholics added books....some protestants threw them out. Stick around for a discussion of the history of the canon of scripture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 (edited) Fresh meat. This thread looks like alot of fun. Can I play? Though I guess it does appear to me that first has her hands full. I will likely just stand by and pray for her. Most protestants have long since left this board having decided that we are among the damned. Or should I say they found their arguements to be inferior but weren't Christian enough to admit it. Those who have not have eventually been assimilated to the borg . I do find it interesting the persistence of Catholics on Protesstant message boards where they are outnumbered and treated far more shabbily far exceeds the persistence of Protestants on this one. Edited March 14, 2006 by thessalonian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReinnieR Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 [quote name='Firsttorun' date='Mar 12 2006, 09:11 PM']I have to agree with you again that we are suppose to pray for one another...but please give me a referance in the Bible (as in not with the added books) where it says that the saints (as in heaven) pray [right][snapback]909752[/snapback][/right] [/quote] those books are not added Martin Luther took those out, that's why you don't have it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 Did we lose her? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Semalsia Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 Run away quick, Firsttorun, or you'll be forever stuck here like me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 [quote name='Raphael' date='Mar 17 2006, 09:47 AM']Did we lose her? [right][snapback]913834[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Since a couple of people on this thread treated her as if she were James White, given her age and that she did not come here in hostility (merely disagreement, duh), I wouldn't be overly surprised. I was older when I got here and had the ability to tell people that were flat out jerks to shove off, but when I was 15 on the Lutheran board, I was very similiar to her, and I believe I would have left and thought some pretty awful things about Catholics. An error on my part it would have been, but none the less... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 yeah when people jump all over something written by a non-catholic it does not help in the conversion process. we should be nicer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 And to give her milk, not meat, when she was crying for milk first. And I apologize, she is 14, not 15. Not everyone has studied theology in depth or is a scholar by 14. She is likely regurgating what she was taught. I think the good news shepard way is a likely candidate to start with rather than the burn the heretic way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ardillacid Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 awww, burning heretics is so much fun though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 true, but even formal heretics should have a valid chance to recant. : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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