Debate with me!

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 12 2006, 09:28 PM'] ?
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Luke 16:19-31.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Mar 12 2006, 10:31 PM']Luke 16:19-31.
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right. Your sentence structure just kinda isn't making any sense there.

[Firsttorun]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Mar 12 2006, 10:24 PM']OK......

1 Corinthians 1:2
Luke 15:10
1 John 1:3
Ephesians 6:18

I also strongly suggest that you read [url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/507100.htm"]Summa Theologica (Suppl., 71) [/url].  It will also be of great help.  Since you are asking a Catholic prinicple, you must understand the Catholic position.
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1 Corinthians 1:2
He is calling those in Corinth saints

Luke 15:10
Note the word Angels...not saint

1 John 1:3
This is once again a letter to a group of people. Note the words THE FATHER, and His Son JESUS CHRIST....once again, no saints mentioned

Ephesians 6:18
Different type of saints. Same sort of saint as in Corithians (believers)

[Firsttorun]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Mar 12 2006, 10:29 PM']Where in the Bible does it say that we are to read the New Testament?  The fact of the matter is that not everything related to Christianity is contained in Scripture....if that is the case, please refer me to the passage containing the explaination of the Trinity or the defintion of the filioque.

As it is, the Bible is only part of the Truth.  There is also Tradition and the understanding of the development of doctrine that must be taken into account.
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Does the Bible say that it is wrong to look are porn?

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Firsttorun' date='Mar 12 2006, 10:34 PM']
Luke 15:10
Note the word Angels...not saint

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So if angels intercede throughout human history here on earth, who have heaven as their home, and they are clearly aware of what is happening here, what makes you think saints, those in heaven, can't offer prayers for us?

And I'm still waiting for you to show us that the Bible indicates, even implicitely that saints can't pray for us.

[quote]Does the Bible say that it is wrong to look are porn?[/quote]

That's Cam's point, not all Truth is contained in the Bible.

Edited March 13, 2006 by Brother Adam

[Firsttorun]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 12 2006, 10:39 PM']So if angels intercede throughout human history here on earth, who have heaven as their home, and they are clearly aware of what is happening here, what makes you think saints, those in heaven, can't offer prayers for us?

And I'm still waiting for you to show us that the Bible indicates, even implicitely that saints can't pray for us.
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Just as I am still waiting for you to come up with GOOD evidence that says that the saint DO pray for us

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Firsttorun' date='Mar 12 2006, 09:39 PM']Does the Bible say that it is wrong to look are porn?
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I think that was his point.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Firsttorun' date='Mar 12 2006, 10:40 PM']Just as I am still waiting for you to come up with GOOD evidence that says that the saint DO pray for us
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We already have. Re-read

Here is further explanation on Revelation 5:8
[quote]
One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!

In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offe]ring our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.[/quote]

[Firsttorun]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 12 2006, 10:39 PM']That's Cam's point, not all Truth is contained in the Bible.
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So you cannot say the saints can pray for us, nor can you say they can't, because it is not clearly indicated in the Bible

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Firsttorun' date='Mar 12 2006, 10:41 PM']So you cannot say the saints can pray for us, nor can you say they can't, because it is not clearly indicated in the Bible
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Sure we can, the Church says so:

1 Timothy 3:15 If I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the Church of the living God, [b]the pillar and bulwark of the truth.[/b]

The Church, not the Bible, is the pillar of Truth.

[Firsttorun]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 12 2006, 10:44 PM']Sure we can, the Church says so:

1 Timothy 3:15 If I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the Church of the living God, [b]the pillar and bulwark of the truth.[/b]

The Church, not the  Bible, is the pillar of Truth.
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I don't see the connection between what I said and that

[Firsttorun]

But I must now depart. I'm not sure what time zone ya'll are in but my clock says it's nearly midnight. And my Algebra homework is saying that I haven't started it yet, and it is due tommorrow morning

[Brother Adam]

You said: "So you cannot say the saints can pray for us, nor can you say they can't, because it is not clearly indicated in the Bible"

I'm saying that we can indeed say that the saints can pray for us because we have the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is the pillar and bulwark of the Truth and the Catholic Church states that we can indeed pray to the saints, and interprets the biblical evidence as such.

Quite on the other hand, apart from the Church you should know that:

"First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation." - 1 Peter 1:20.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Firsttorun' date='Mar 12 2006, 10:48 PM']But I must now depart.  I'm not sure what time zone ya'll are in but my clock says it's nearly midnight.  And my Algebra homework is saying that I haven't started it yet, and it is due tommorrow morning
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Blessings. Perhaps tomorrow we can talk about authority. That is what it always comes down to really, a question of authority and who has it.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Firsttorun' date='Mar 12 2006, 11:41 PM']So you cannot say the saints can pray for us, nor can you say they can't, because it is not clearly indicated in the Bible
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No, what we are saying is that you can't base everything upon Scripture. You were asking us to present biblical proof for saints praying in heaven, according to your understanding of it.

The point I am making and you are supporting (thanks for that) is that it is completely plausible that saints are in heaven praying for us.

Also, look at Rev. 6:9-10.

[quote name='Rev. 6:9-10']And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held.  And they cried with a loud voice, saying: How long, O Lord (holy and true) dost thou not judge and revenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?[/quote]

What are those who are in heaven doing? They are praying. They ask not this out of hatred to their enemies, but out of zeal for the glory of God, and a desire that the Lord would accelerate the general judgment, and the complete beatitude of all his elect.

And also look at Rev. 7:10.

[quote name='Rev. 7:9-10'] After this I saw a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and tribes, and peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne, and in sight of the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands: And they cried with a loud voice, saying: Salvation to our God, who sitteth upon the throne, and to the Lamb.[/quote]

What are they doing? They are praying.....proof enough.