Debate with me!

[stbernardLT]

[quote name='Firsttorun' date='Mar 12 2006, 01:01 PM']I'm taking the subjects one at a time (and quite honestly I don't know to much about the apacrapha or what ever it's called)

Things that I agree with:
I agree that once a believer has died (in the earthly sense) that they then go onto dwell in heaven with God.  I also agree that God can see all that is going on on earth.

What I disagree with:
God can see what is going on on earth and that he can send his angels down to earth.  What I have to start arguing with is the fact that the people who have died are not God and cannot see all that is going on, for the are not omniscient. Those who have gone to heaven are not angels. I think when the Bible says that the angels bring forth the prayers of the saints, "saints" is refering the children of God still dwelling on earth (you gave me an incorrect referance, Revalation 5:8 says nothing at all about the prayers of saints)
[right][snapback]909474[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

I don't think anyone put saints in the same category as God. Our link to the saints just as the body of Christ here on earth (they are still part of the body in heaven) is God in the Holy Spirit. The big difference is that those in heaven have an absolute faith because God is right before them and so God can communicate our needs to them more clearly, knowing that since us on earth have little faith and don't know how to move mountains yet, we could probably use a little help from those who have absolute faith. Also read Luke 16:19-31, if someone is able to see into heaven from hell,and communicate with them (Rich man communicating to Abraham) why wouldn't God allow this from earth to heaven. Obviously this scripture shows that Jesus was way ahead of us on the whole asking saints for help thing.

[Firsttorun]

[quote name='stbernardLT' date='Mar 12 2006, 02:20 PM']I don't think anyone put saints in the same category as God.  Our link to the saints just as the body of Christ here on earth (they are still part of the body in heaven) is God in the Holy Spirit.  The big difference is that those in heaven have an absolute faith because God is right before them and so God can communicate our needs to them more clearly, knowing that since us on earth have little faith and don't know how to move mountains yet, we could probably use a little help from those who have absolute faith.  Also read Luke 16:19-31, if someone is able to see into heaven from hell,and communicate with them (Rich man communicating to Abraham) why wouldn't God allow this from earth to heaven.  Obviously this scripture shows that Jesus was way ahead of us on the whole asking saints for help thing.
[right][snapback]909483[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

You said that God can comminicate our needs to the saints. You also said that we could use help from the saints. This suggests that God in not capible of granting our prays without the saints help. I believe that those in hell may be able to comunicate with those in heaven and vise versa, I believe that God can hear our prayers. But I do not believe that we can hold conversations with the saints while we are on earth.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Firsttorun' date='Mar 12 2006, 03:01 PM']What I disagree with:
God can see what is going on on earth and that he can send his angels down to earth.  What I have to start arguing with is the fact that the people who have died are not God and cannot see all that is going on, for the are not omniscient. Those who have gone to heaven are not angels. I think when the Bible says that the angels bring forth the prayers of the saints, "saints" is refering the children of God still dwelling on earth (you gave me an incorrect referance, Revalation 5:8 says nothing at all about the prayers of saints)
[right][snapback]909474[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
Well, there's a distinction that must be made. There is no reason to believe that when we reach heaven, we won't be able to know a huge amount more than we do now. If God wants it to be possible, we could know everything about the world...which is a finite amount. However, because we are finite creatures, we could never know an infinite amount. So saying that we would know all that's going on down here on earth isn't impossible.

On to the matter of Revelation, if you'll recall, there is a passage (Revelation 6:9-11) in which the saints who were martyred are crying out to God. Those who were already dead were interceding for justice before God. They had already died, so they weren't still on earth. They were in heaven, aware of the persecution the Church was suffering on earth, and interceding.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Firsttorun' date='Mar 12 2006, 03:44 PM']You said that God can comminicate our needs to the saints.  You also said that we could use help from the saints.  This suggests that God in not capible of granting our prays without the saints help.
[right][snapback]909493[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
No, it's not logical to say that because God allows the saints to help Him, He must not be able to do it without them.

Consider the possibility that God, although perfectly capable of doing all things Himself (as He certainly is), wants others to share in His work by "helping" Him. This is why the humble call themselves the Lord's servants all through the Scriptures. God made humans to serve Him and to be His workers, not because He needed us, but because He wanted to share the good workload with us. For instance, Adam helped name the animals...God could have named them, but He wanted Adam to do so.

The prayers of the saints are not necessary for God to help us, but God wants the saints to have a role in it and to have a share in His glory.

[stbernardLT]

[quote name='Firsttorun' date='Mar 12 2006, 01:44 PM']You said that God can comminicate our needs to the saints.  You also said that we could use help from the saints.  This suggests that God in not capable of granting our prays without the saints help.  I believe that those in hell may be able to comunicate with those in heaven and vise versa, I believe that God can hear our prayers.  But I do not believe that we can hold conversations with the saints while we are on earth.
[right][snapback]909493[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


Ok so let me get this straight. God allows those in hell to ask for help from saints even though it will never be given. But those of us on earth who can stiil experience the glory God and him granting us favors are not allowed to ask for help from the saints. Either your mixed up or God, and I don't think its God. And no one said anything about conversations we basiscly said asking saints to intercede for us, that is a big difference.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='stbernardLT' date='Mar 12 2006, 04:01 PM']Ok so let me get this straight. God allows those in hell to ask for help from saints even though it will never be given.  But those of us on earth who can stiil experience the glory God and him granting us favors are not allowed to ask for help from the saints.  Either your mixed up or God, and I don't think its God.  And no one said anything about conversations we basiscly said asking saints to intercede for us, that is a big difference.
[right][snapback]909502[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
Please remember your charity.

[stbernardLT]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Mar 12 2006, 02:09 PM']Please remember your charity.
[right][snapback]909505[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Sorry its really hot in my office right now. So talking about hell makes it even worse. :

[Cam42]

[quote name='Firsttorun']God can see what is going on on earth and that he can send his angels down to earth. What I have to start arguing with is the fact that the people who have died are not God and cannot see all that is going on, for the are not omniscient. Those who have gone to heaven are not angels. I think when the Bible says that the angels bring forth the prayers of the saints, "saints" is refering the children of God still dwelling on earth (you gave me an incorrect referance, Revalation 5:8 says nothing at all about the prayers of saints) [/quote]

[quote name='Firsttorun']You said that God can comminicate our needs to the saints. You also said that we could use help from the saints. This suggests that God in not capible of granting our prays without the saints help. I believe that those in hell may be able to comunicate with those in heaven and vise versa, I believe that God can hear our prayers. But I do not believe that we can hold conversations with the saints while we are on earth. [/quote]

Ok, let's see.....we should probably start with sainthood......what we are talking about is called [i]communo sanctorum[/i] or Communion of Saints. The doctrine expressed in the second clause of the ninth article in the received text of the Apostles' Creed: "I believe . . . the Holy Catholic Church, the Communion of Saints".

The communion of saints is the spiritual solidarity which binds together the faithful on earth, the souls in purgatory, and the saints in heaven in the organic unity of the same mystical body under Christ its head, and in a constant interchange of supernatural offices. The participants in that solidarity are called saints by reason of their destination and of their partaking of the fruits of the Redemption (1 Corinthians 1:2).

[quote name='1 Cor 1:2']To the church of God that is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that invoke the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, in every place of theirs and ours.[/quote]

The communion of saints, though formally defined only in its particular bearings (Council of Trent, Sess. XXV, decrees on purgatory; on the invocation, veneration, and relics of saints and of sacred images; on indulgences), is, nevertheless, dogma commonly taught and accepted in the Church. The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches this:

[quote name='CCC #946']After confessing "the holy catholic Church," the Apostles' Creed adds "the communion of saints." In a certain sense this article is a further explanation of the preceding: "What is the Church if not the assembly of all the saints?" The communion of saints is the Church.[/quote]
[i]Nicetas, Expl. Symb., 10:PL 52:871B[/i]

[quote name='CCC #947'] "Since all the faithful form one body, the good of each is communicated to the others. . . . We must therefore believe that there exists a communion of goods in the Church. But the most important member is Christ, since he is the head. . . . Therefore, the riches of Christ are communicated to all the members, through the sacraments." "As this Church is governed by one and the same Spirit, all the goods she has received necessarily become a common fund."[/quote]
[i]St. Thomas Aquinas, Symb., 10.
Roman Catechism I, 10,24.[/i]

[quote name='CCC #948']The term "communion of saints" therefore has two closely linked meanings: communion in holy things (sancta)" and "among holy persons (sancti)."

Sancta sanctis! ("God's holy gifts for God's holy people") is proclaimed by the celebrant in most Eastern liturgies during the elevation of the holy Gifts before the distribution of communion. The faithful (sancti) are fed by Christ's holy body and blood (sancta) to grow in the communion of the Holy Spirit (koinonia) and to communicate it to the world.[/quote]

There is no denying that those who have gone to heaven are not angels. Angels are beings in and of themselves. And actually Revelation 5:8 does speak about prayers of the saints, however it is continued in the verses following......

[quote name='Rev. 5:8-10']And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, [u]which are the prayers of saints[/u]: And they sung a new canticle, saying: Thou art worthy, O Lord, to take the book, and to open the seals thereof; because thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God, in thy blood, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation. And hast made us to our God a kingdom and priests, and we shall reign on the earth.[/quote]

In speaking about what is at the end of verse 8 here is the accepted understanding of this from a theological point of view: Here we see that the saints in heaven offer up to Christ the prayers of the faithful upon earth.

Moving on to verses 11 and following we see what the angels actually do:

[quote name='Rev 8:11-13']And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne, and the living creatures, and the ancients; and the number of them was thousands of thousands, Saying with a loud voice: The Lamb that was slain is worthy to receive power, and divinity, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and benediction. And every creature, which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them: I heard all saying: To him that sitteth on the throne, and to the Lamb, benediction, and honour, and glory, and power, for ever and ever. And the four living creatures said: Amen.[/quote]

What the angels are doing is bringing forth the prayers of the communion of saints, however the [i]communo sanctorum[/i] is not the living, but rather (as presented in Rev. 5) those ancients who are in heaven and are offered in the manner presented above.....

[Maria]

Firsttorun,
God knows what we need before we ask Him. Why do we pray? God is able to do all things. Why do we ask friends to pray for us? Why does every part need to do its work for the body to be built up? What is the work of the saints in heaven? We know that they continually praise God and intercede for the saints on earth. Does God need their prayers to act? Not in theory. Does God need us to take care of the earth in order for it to avoid becoming polluted? Not in theory. Did God need Mary's yes for Him to come among us as a man? Not in theory. But the point is that the story of God's dealings with man is the story of God asking man to cooperate with Him and, in a sense, making Himself dependant on man's choices (dependant in the details, not the overall story). It's the story of Love.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Firsttorun' date='Mar 12 2006, 01:44 PM']You said that God can comminicate our needs to the saints.  You also said that we could use help from the saints.  This suggests that God in not capible of granting our prays without the saints help.   I believe that those in hell may be able to comunicate with those in heaven and vise versa, I believe that God can hear our prayers.  But I do not believe that we can hold conversations with the saints while we are on earth.
[right][snapback]909493[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
God can use His servants on earth to carry out His work and help others. For example, someone may pray to God for help with some problem, and another person on earth may come to his aid and give the needed help. This would in no way take away from God's almighty power.

And I'm sure you'd have no problem with praying to God on behalf of someone else, or with asking your fellow Christians to pray for you.

If God hears the prayers of those on earth on behalf of other people, why should He not hear the prayers of His saints in Heaven??
Again, this does not take away from the power and glory of God, but adds to it.

If you believe those in hell can communicate with those in heaven, why can't those on earth?
You give no evidence to back up your statement, merely asserting that this is what you believe. In debate, you'll have to do better than just assert your own opinions.

[Quietfire]

Go gently folks...
she is were I was 2 years ago when I started at Phatmass.

Firsttorun, on your behalf may I request that my fellow phatmassers slow down a bit?
It can be alot to read 7 or 8 posts to your one, a bit overwhelming.
I am not saying that you cant handle it, cause Im sure you can!

I was thrown off by all the big words too. I would ask them to just "dumb it down" for me. Which they would.

Enjoy.
Im sticking around too just to watch mostly.

[Firsttorun]

[quote name='stbernardLT' date='Mar 12 2006, 03:01 PM']Ok so let me get this straight. God allows those in hell to ask for help from saints even though it will never be given.  But those of us on earth who can stiil experience the glory God and him granting us favors are not allowed to ask for help from the saints.  Either your mixed up or God, and I don't think its God.  And no one said anything about conversations we basiscly said asking saints to intercede for us, that is a big difference.
[right][snapback]909502[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Alright then...If the saints need to intersede for us then basically what you are saying is God doesn't know best

[Firsttorun]

[quote name='Quietfire' date='Mar 12 2006, 07:19 PM']Go gently folks...
she is were I was 2 years ago when I started at Phatmass. 

Firsttorun, on your behalf may I request that my fellow phatmassers slow down a bit? 
It can be alot to read 7 or 8 posts to your one, a bit overwhelming.
I am not saying that you cant handle it, cause Im sure you can! 

I was thrown off by all the big words too.  I would ask them to just "dumb it down" for me.  Which they would.

Enjoy.
Im sticking around too just to watch mostly.
[right][snapback]909640[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


I agree....I'm willing to debate, but when I'm up against 5 or six people, all of which are significantly older than me, are talking at once and are all up against me my brain overloads

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Firsttorun' date='Mar 12 2006, 08:42 PM']Alright then...If the saints need to intersede for us then basically what you are saying is God doesn't know best
[right][snapback]909692[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

It someone rubs you the wrong way, feel free to ignore them. Actually there is a nifty little ignore button you may feel free to use if you need to.

Back on topic though, please consider what I said on the communion of the saints. It is no different than you or I praying for each other. It isn't that God needs to hear from us or needs us to pray for each other, but he wants us to. That is why the Bible specifically says that we should intercede (pray) for each other on each others behalf.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Firsttorun' date='Mar 12 2006, 09:45 PM']I agree....I'm willing to debate, but when I'm up against 5 or six people, all of which are significantly older than me, are talking at once and are all up against me my brain overloads
[right][snapback]909694[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

So, you're gonna come here and call out the debate board, then not debate, because people want to debate you?????

That makes no sense. Read the posts one at a time and then respond to them.....there is no time limit. I have taken on multiple people before.....it isn't all that hard.

Don't call us out, then expect us to back off.....I, for one, will not do it. You wanted a debate, I have answered your statements and so have others.

If you want to discuss things without debate, go to the apologetics board, if you want to debate......respond.