ReinnieR Posted March 12, 2006 Share Posted March 12, 2006 [quote name='Maria' date='Mar 11 2006, 09:39 PM']As per Firsttorun's request, I am making this thread go over to a third page (she can't open this one). [right][snapback]909238[/snapback][/right] [/quote] what does that mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maria Posted March 12, 2006 Share Posted March 12, 2006 Saints are role models in holiness, but they also help us because they (of course) build up the body, us included. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted March 12, 2006 Share Posted March 12, 2006 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maria Posted March 12, 2006 Share Posted March 12, 2006 Just as all the members of a body help the other members perform their functions (and be what they're supposed to be, and remain healthy), the Saints, by being what they are supposed to be to a heroic degree, help us more than less holy members of the body to be what we are supposed to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReinnieR Posted March 12, 2006 Share Posted March 12, 2006 [quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Mar 11 2006, 09:46 PM'] [right][snapback]909248[/snapback][/right] [/quote] sorry to but love your title HSMom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maria Posted March 12, 2006 Share Posted March 12, 2006 Sorry. I didn't see everyone else's replies. Firsttorun said something in Open MIC which I understand to mean that she can (no longer) access this page. She asked that someone make it have a third page. I'm just staying sort of on topic as I do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReinnieR Posted March 12, 2006 Share Posted March 12, 2006 [quote name='Maria' date='Mar 11 2006, 09:46 PM']Just as all the members of a body help the other members perform their functions (and be what they're supposed to be, and remain healthy), the Saints, by being what they are supposed to be to a heroic degree, help us more than less holy members of the body to be what we are supposed to be. [right][snapback]909249[/snapback][/right] [/quote] hmm so i guess we can just debate him huh? i wanna debate him on intercessory prayers too but i don't wanna confuse him...there's too many of us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maria Posted March 12, 2006 Share Posted March 12, 2006 Yay! We made page 3! Sorry for the confusion, everyone. And if that isn't what Firsttorun meant, I will be suitably embarrased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted March 12, 2006 Share Posted March 12, 2006 [quote name='Myles' date='Mar 11 2006, 11:42 PM']I have no doubt that Brother Adam can handle this debate single handedly and having reasoned himself into the Church from an 'evangelical' position he is probably better qualified than I. But like Paphnutius I think I'll hang around too. See what I can contribute... [right][snapback]909243[/snapback][/right] [/quote] That's cool. Adam can handle it if he wants. I defer to him in this as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firsttorun Posted March 12, 2006 Author Share Posted March 12, 2006 [quote name='ReinnieR' date='Mar 11 2006, 10:48 PM']hmm so i guess we can just debate him huh? i wanna debate him on intercessory prayers too but i don't wanna confuse him...there's too many of us [right][snapback]909255[/snapback][/right] [/quote] HIM?!?!?! Since when am I a him????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firsttorun Posted March 12, 2006 Author Share Posted March 12, 2006 [quote name='Maria' date='Mar 11 2006, 10:52 PM']Yay! We made page 3! Sorry for the confusion, everyone. And if that isn't what Firsttorun meant, I will be suitably embarrased. [right][snapback]909257[/snapback][/right] [/quote] No...you were right!!! Thanks a ton! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted March 12, 2006 Share Posted March 12, 2006 [quote name='Firsttorun' date='Mar 11 2006, 11:13 PM']Because the older you are the more advantages you have because you've been along longer, and have had more time for indep study [right][snapback]909195[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Umm....indepth study will only lead to the truth. And the truth is fully revealed within the Roman Catholic Church. If you disagree, why? If you think that the Church doesn't hold the fullness of truth, why? If you think that Evangelism is more authoritative than the Church, why? Oh, by the way, I don't care how old you are. I am an equal opportunity debater; if you doubt me, as St. Thomas More or EENS. If you want to debate, be ready to debate. Don't use fallacies. I will expose them. Don't attack the person, that is bad form and I can guarantee you that it will make you look silly. I don't care if you are a girl. Several of the most respected theologians of all time are women. So, bring your topic or answer those questions. But be prepared, I won't let go until your SUBSTANTIVELY prove me wrong. Finally, it is nothing personal.....and if at the end of it, you want to be Catholic, we can help with that....if not, I hope you learn something. Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam + Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted March 12, 2006 Share Posted March 12, 2006 [quote]Lets see...praying to the saints....those added books of the Bible (forget what they are called..I think it starts with and A).....[/quote] Hi again, I'd like to add a few thoughts on these two topics you mentioned. Before I decided to come into full communion with the Church, Jesus' bride, these were two issues that I had serious problems with too. The pastor at my church told us that Catholics profaned the Word of God by adding to what was written in the Bible (Revelation 22:18-19) and that these books that they added to the Bible were full of heresies and inaccuracies. While I liked my pastor, I wanted to do some research on it myself, and found out that who ever taught my pastor didn't know history very well! To keep it really simple, at least for now, as we can go into more depth, this is basically what happened - During and after the life of Jesus and the Apostles there was no New Testament. It was early Christians, that through the Holy Spirit wrote the New Testament, but they also wrote a lot of other letters as well. There are a whole slew of writings that we have from that same time period that were circulating, but it was up to the early Christian Church to decide which of the letters were actually inspired by the Holy Spirit and which were not. A lot of early Christian theologians and scholars came up with a whole bunch of different lists of what they thought was a good canon for both the New and Old Testament. Now, we agree about the New Testament, but the question was about the Old Testament. The early Christian Church got together in the form of a 'council' and decided to use the same texts that Jesus used when he was here on earth. These texts included the books of the Bible that Protestants reject. When Protestants got together after the year 1500, they decided to use the canon of the Old Testament that the Jews used that rejected that Jesus Christ was our Savior! Only one passage of one of the books of the canon of the Old Testament that Protestants actually removed from the Bible, the Bible that Christians used after the canon was decided on, and until Protestants decided to remove them, contains a doctrine that Protestants would disagree with. The rest of the books contain beautiful wisdom literature and historical texts that most Protestants, if they read them, would not have a problem with. The texts actually complete the history of Israel from the exile to the time of Jesus. That brings us to praying to saints. I think most Protestants, like myself, just didn't understand what this was all about. As Christian believers, we believe we are basically one big family of God. We are adopted sons and daughters of God, through our Savior Jesus Christ. As one big family St. Paul tells us that we should be always offering prayers of intercession for each other. (Ephesians 6:18-19, Romans 15:30). To intercede simply means to offer up prayers. When a Catholic says "I pray to the saints" they probably mean pray in the old understand of the word. To pray means "to ask" in its generic sense. If I say "Will you pray for me about my test coming up" we are fulfilling what the Bible says to intercede for each other. Now that leaves the question, when our family, Christian believers, leave this earth, are they dead? Or are they alive with God, intimately united to Him in a more perfect way than we are now? I believe that they are alive and in heaven, not dead. And if God and the angels know what is going on here on earth (God can send his angels to do things on earth), why can't those who are alive in heaven, intimately close to God, pray for us on earth? I believe that they can. Revelation 5:8 talks about angels bringing forth the prayers of the saints to God. When we ask a saint in heaven to pray for us, we aren't praying to them like they are God, we are saying "Hey, I have a big test on Monday, pray to God for me please" or something similiar. Okay, have a blessed Sunday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firsttorun Posted March 12, 2006 Author Share Posted March 12, 2006 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 12 2006, 01:35 PM'] That brings us to praying to saints. I think most Protestants, like myself, just didn't understand what this was all about. As Christian believers, we believe we are basically one big family of God. We are adopted sons and daughters of God, through our Savior Jesus Christ. As one big family St. Paul tells us that we should be always offering prayers of intercession for each other. (Ephesians 6:18-19, Romans 15:30). To intercede simply means to offer up prayers. When a Catholic says "I pray to the saints" they probably mean pray in the old understand of the word. To pray means "to ask" in its generic sense. If I say "Will you pray for me about my test coming up" we are fulfilling what the Bible says to intercede for each other. Now that leaves the question, when our family, Christian believers, leave this earth, are they dead? Or are they alive with God, intimately united to Him in a more perfect way than we are now? I believe that they are alive and in heaven, not dead. And if God and the angels know what is going on here on earth (God can send his angels to do things on earth), why can't those who are alive in heaven, intimately close to God, pray for us on earth? I believe that they can. Revelation 5:8 talks about angels bringing forth the prayers of the saints to God. When we ask a saint in heaven to pray for us, we aren't praying to them like they are God, we are saying "Hey, I have a big test on Monday, pray to God for me please" or something similiar. Okay, have a blessed Sunday. [right][snapback]909454[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I'm taking the subjects one at a time (and quite honestly I don't know to much about the apacrapha or what ever it's called) Things that I agree with: I agree that once a believer has died (in the earthly sense) that they then go onto dwell in heaven with God. I also agree that God can see all that is going on on earth. What I disagree with: God can see what is going on on earth and that he can send his angels down to earth. What I have to start arguing with is the fact that the people who have died are not God and cannot see all that is going on, for the are not omniscient. Those who have gone to heaven are not angels. I think when the Bible says that the angels bring forth the prayers of the saints, "saints" is refering the children of God still dwelling on earth (you gave me an incorrect referance, Revalation 5:8 says nothing at all about the prayers of saints) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the flutehonker Posted March 12, 2006 Share Posted March 12, 2006 I have a feeling this thread is going to be a great place for younger Catholics like myself to learn more about our faith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now