Gay-affirming Christians find veil lifted in Bible

[Lil Red]

Faith & values: Gay-affirming Christians find veil lifted in Bible
By ERIK THORSON

When The Gazette published the somewhat misleading headline last year, "Lutherans approve gay unions," I was reminded again about the divide that exists between different factions of Christians in this country, and considered how this message would be received by Christians who identify themselves as "conservative."

Though on the surface the struggle seems to be about the acceptance or condemnation of a group of people whose inclination for relationship and love is different than the majority's, there is actually a deeper conversation going on -- a conversation that takes place not at the fringes of the faith, in the realm of behaviors and morality, but at the center, with the basic questions of who Jesus is, and how we read our Scriptures.

The fundamentalist, who sees scripture as conceived in the mind of God as an instruction book for life, sees some prohibitions and condemnations of same-sex activity in the Bible, and this closes the question. Those who affirm gay and lesbian relationships and marriages and support them obviously are not paying attention to the Bible, in this view.

But another kind of Christian sees the Bible as a record of humanity's encounter with God as Father, Son and Holy Spirit and hears God's "living word" coming through the experiences and words of our ancestors in the faith, in spite of the limitations of time, place and culture.

St. Paul in the second letter to the Corinthians, the third chapter, noted the difference between believers in the old relationship to God carved in stone tablets and believers in the new relationship, written on human hearts.

He was talking about the change that had come with the resurrection of Jesus. He noted that a "veil" was on the hearts of believers in the old law, keeping them from seeing clearly. This veil also keeps them from seeing the glory of God reflected in the faces of fellow believers.

I have seen time and time again that it is the experience of knowing and loving a gay or lesbian person and seeing their faith, seeing the glory of God reflected in their faces and their relationships, that changes the minds of people. Whether it is a family member or a close friend, the witness of their lives lifts a veil from your eyes, and you no longer see person with the label "gay," but you see someone who has been baptized into Christ and given the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Other words from Scripture are opened to you:

Where before you were concerned that God created humanity male and female, and that this was the only model for human relationship -- "From now on, therefore, we regard no one from a human point of view; even though we once knew Christ from a human point of view, we know him no longer in that way. So if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation: everything old has passed away; see, everything has become new! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation" (2 Co. 5:16-18)

Where the distinctions between male and female seemed God-ordained and absolute -- "There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28)

And, when you wonder if it is the right of the Christian to be condemning gay and lesbian people -- (This one was read at my brother-in-law's wedding) -- "Who will bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? It is Christ Jesus, who died, yes, who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us." (Romans 8:33-34)

And so the growing number of Christians who affirm and support gay and lesbian relationships hold Scripture very close to our hearts. It is the Christ we meet in Scripture who overcomes our confusion, anxiety and prejudice and frees us to reconcile with neighbors who are different from us.

I have no illusions about changing minds with this column because this is the question that polarizes the church more than any other. Rather, it is the Holy Spirit, given in baptism and found in the lives of gay and lesbian believers, who is our only real hope for overcoming the divide.

Which has more weight, the six verses in the Bible that explicitly condemn same-sex sexual activity, or the overwhelming witness of the loving, reconciling God found throughout the Bible? Which creation do we live in, the old or the new?

If Christ has claimed a gay or lesbian person and lives in them, isn't getting married just obeying the sixth commandment?

In the end, the way we treat our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters in Christ will demonstrate what kind of Christians we are.

The Rev. Erik Thorson is pastor of Bethlehem Lutheran Church.

[Lil Red]

what do you think of the statements made by this pastor?

[Ash Wednesday]

He is correct when he states that our treatment of gays and lesbians demonstrates what kind of Christians we are. But it would seem that he is asserting that to not agree with the homosexual lifestyle is somehow uncharitable, and dare I say it, "un-Christian." His approach to the bible sounds like a bunch of heavily flawed "love is love" slippery slopeism to me, and he's not only taking passages in the bible out of context, but also completely overlooking the fact that the bible is filled with references to family and marriage that are based on an institution consisting of one man, and one woman.

I don't agree with the tone of his statements, i.e. "conservatives" are those oldsters that follow creaky passe' laws on stone tablets, and worse yet, don't [i]truly[/i] have the word of God written on their hearts.

[the flutehonker]

marriage is a [b]sacrament[/b] uniting a [b]man[/b] and a [b]woman[/b], and i can't really think of anything that's going to change that.

[Socrates]

A heaping dump of very smelly stuff is what it is!

This liberal cleric simply disregards everything in Scripture that disagrees with modern politically-correct liberal ideology, and reinterprets scipture to conform to relativistic liberal ideas, rather than conform his own ideas to those taught by God in Scripture.

This article is sadly typical of the mush-minded mess of contradictions that is known as "liberal Christianity."

"Liberal Christians" follow a Christ who is not found in the Gospels, but exists only in their own heads.
Christ called sinners to repent of their sin and change their ways to follow Him. He had mercy on the penitent sinner, but the sinner is always required to be truly penitent and change his ways. ("Go and sin no more.") Nowhere in the Gospels does Christ condone sin, or tell sinners to continue in their sins.

The entire Bible is quite clear on the evil of sin, and the theme of the importance of repentence is found throughout all of Sacred Scripture.
God is a merciful God, but sinners must repent of their sinful ways to experience God's mercy.

It is ironic that this cleric quotes St. Paul in Romans (entirely out of context) to support his "gay-friendly" ideology, when this same St. Paul elsewhere lists homosexuality among the sins that will exclude people from the Kingdom of God.

"You know perfectly well that people who do wrong will not inherit the kingdom of God: people of immoral lives, adulterers, catamites, [b]sodomites[/b], thieves, usurers, drunkards, slanderers and swindlers will never inherit the kingdom of God." ~ [i]1 Corinthians 6:9-10[/i]

Protestants have first rejected the teaching authority and guidance of the Church, now liberal protestants dismiss following Scripture itself as "fundamentalist." They wind up following nothing but the fads of modern secular liberalism. What indeed is the point of such a "Christianity"? Is it any wonder that liberal protestantism is in steep decline?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Lil Red' date='Mar 11 2006, 06:47 PM']what do you think of the statements made by this pastor?
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He misunderstands what it means to say that God is merciful.

[quote]Which has more weight, the six verses in the Bible that explicitly condemn same-sex sexual activity, or the overwhelming witness of the loving, reconciling God found throughout the Bible? Which creation do we live in, the old or the new?[/quote]

He seems to put at odds the old and the new covenants, but the new is not against the old, it is the fulfillment of the old. Additionally, he seems to imply that the love and reconciliation of God are the type which permissively allow people to do whatever they please and still reward them. It's a typical, albeit false, theology. Love desires the good of the beloved...and God does not want people to stay in their sins. God's mercy is not an excuse for our sins, it is both a mandate for us to leave them behind and the strength needed to do so.

The pastor would do well to look up the meaning of the word "reconciliation." It very literally means, "the act of mingling eyelashes." It means that we look God in the eyes, as lovers do, and are able to contemplate Him. Those who live in sin are not able to contemplate God, for "nothing unclean shall enter it."

It is the theology of God as a hippy father who wants to be friends with His children...no discipline...no rules...he not only loves them, but accepts their actions...and His "love" is, according to this theory, an apathetic showering of undeserved gifts. Certainly the gifts are undeserved, but they are given because we are open to them. God does not rip open our hands and force His gifts into them...we must live in a way which opens our lives to His grace.

[Lil Red]

how do i respond to this pastor? (this was in one of my state's papers) i don't feel like this should go unanswered, but neither do i really want to be the one who does it. i dunno what i should do.

[jswranch]

-Has not the pope dogmatically declared sodomy a sin and a grave matter? Issue closed. (Lutheran, oops)

-Scripture. Check out [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_homosexuality"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_homosexuality[/url] and [url="http://www.phatmass.com/directory/index.php/cat_id/414"]http://www.phatmass.com/directory/index.php/cat_id/414[/url] for some arguments. Keep your arguments NT though. As RC's we are not subject explicitly to OT Levitical Law. However, Genesis account of Marriage is an exception (Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve). We are also subject to the 10 commandments. (The 6th commandment condemns adultery, not fornication or sodomy.) On controversial issues such as sexual morality I try to start a bible study on the topic. I find Protestants usually, when defining spiritual issues, grab one or two verses and hang their understandings and beliefs on those particular scriptures. The Catholic method regularly includes looking up [u]all[/u] the NT verses on sexuality and sexual morality before attempting to come to a conclusion on what God is trying to convey to us. The above links provide a number of scriptures.

[Maria]

For those of you who understand French (or are willing to read an internet translation), a priest in my diocese has recently written something rather excellent on this topic on his blog. He starts his post with the quote "Amour et Vérité se rencontrent, Justice et Paix s'embrassent". The English version doesn't work as well: "Love and faithfulness meet together; righteousness and peace kiss each other". His post is essentially about how we can resolve the necessity to love and the necessity to be faithful to the truth.
[url="http://benedictus74.blogspot.com/"]http://benedictus74.blogspot.com/[/url]

[Maria]

Oh, and he essentially deals with the topics the lutheran raises.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Lil Red' date='Mar 12 2006, 04:11 PM']how do i respond to this pastor? (this was in one of my state's papers) i don't feel like this should go unanswered, but neither do i really want to be the one who does it. i dunno what i should do.
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Basically, you should stick to the Bible, and point out, first, that in the Bible, God's mercy is always dependent on repentence, and turning from sin. The sinner must be open to God's mercy, not obstinately persist in sin. (There are any number of Bible stories you can use to illustrate this.)
Secondly, I'd note that wherever homosexuality is specifically mentioned in the Bible, it is clearly condemned. Nowhere is homosexuality nor any other sin condoned.
Mention St. Paul's condemnation of homosexuality, which was clearly [i]after[/i] the New Covenant. He repeatedly condemns various forms of sexual immorality in his epistles. Thus, the idea that old rules of sexual morality were done away with in the New Covenant is clearly un-Biblical.

[HisChild]

God is all merciful, yes, but He is all just as well. He was compassionate, but He never todl the sinners to continue sinning, but said, 'Neither to I condemn you. Go and sin no more'.

[thessalonian]

[quote]The fundamentalist, who sees scripture as conceived in the mind of God as an instruction book for life, sees some prohibitions and condemnations of same-sex activity in the Bible, and this closes the question. Those who affirm gay and lesbian relationships and marriages and support them obviously are not paying attention to the Bible, in this view.

But another kind of Christian sees the Bible as a record of humanity's encounter with God as Father, Son and Holy Spirit and hears God's "living word" coming through the experiences and words of our ancestors in the faith, in spite of the limitations of time, place and culture.[/quote]


Always look for dichotomies like this. Catholics see it as both and there is no conflict. God tells us how to live our lives. It is true that Homosexuality is an abomination in God's eyes. Yet God's mercy and love allows him to forgive the sinner who asks for such forgiveness. That never changes. The Pastor thinks that it needed to. That at one time the homosexual needed to be forgiven by God but today he does not. How about the murderer and the rapist. At some point down the line will they also be okay in what they are doing? It would seem that possibility is open with his loose interpretation of the scripture molding it to fit the desires of the flesh.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Lil Red' date='Mar 11 2006, 06:47 PM']Which has more weight, the six verses in the Bible that explicitly condemn same-sex sexual activity, or the overwhelming witness of the loving, reconciling God found throughout the Bible?
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The Bible isn't a big scale where we count how many verses are over here and how many are over there and see which number is bigger. When anything is explicitly condemned -- even once -- and especially in the New Testament, it is not loving to ignore it.