Thy Geekdom Come Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 [quote name='brendan1104' date='Mar 9 2006, 09:26 PM']'Is this the spring people had hoped would emerge from the Second Vatican Council? Instead of a genuine renewal in our Church, we have seen only novelties. Instead of our religious life entering a period of new invigoration, as has happened in the past, what we see now is a form of Christianity that has turned towards the world.' [right][snapback]907641[/snapback][/right] [/quote] How many years of bickering followed the Council of Chalcedon? Renewal takes time. It also is something that the devil can try to abuse, and indeed, there have been many abuses, but we are seeing that the renewal is catching up to the abuses and overtaking them. EWTN is anything but modernist. It is solidly orthodox and it's obvious that someone who has a false preference to pre-Vatican II popes (false because he somehow thinks they wouldn't agree with the need for the council in the context of the council) will think that anyone who believes in the post-conciliar popes (and all of the pre-conciliar popes, as well, although he may blind himself to the continuity of the council) will be biased against them and, often, quite paranoid about their beliefs. Those who fight Rome fight God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pio Nono Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 JMJ 3/10 - First Friday of Lent [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Mar 9 2006, 09:31 PM']I like the journey home, and life on the rock. sometimes the priests says some stuff i do not agree with, but no biggie. [right][snapback]907764[/snapback][/right] [/quote] No biggie, except for that time when Fr. Francis Mary said that homosexuals may feel called to the priesthood like women might feel called to the priesthood; though it may feel like a calling, it's really not at all. That's heresy, and the Bishop of Montgomery heard all about it from a LOT of people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 [quote name='Pio Nono' date='Mar 10 2006, 11:00 AM']JMJ 3/10 - First Friday of Lent No biggie, except for that time when Fr. Francis Mary said that homosexuals may feel called to the priesthood like women might feel called to the priesthood; though it may feel like a calling, it's really not at all. That's heresy, and the Bishop of Montgomery heard all about it from a LOT of people. [right][snapback]907979[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Well, how was it phrased? Fr. Francis is very orthodox, I think. I'd be curious if his point was that they [i][b]felt[/b][/i] as if they were called but, of course, like women, weren't really called at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toledo_jesus Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 [quote name='Raphael' date='Mar 10 2006, 10:43 AM']Mother Angelica died? I'm sure she'll be sorry to hear that. [right][snapback]907970[/snapback][/right] [/quote] dude, she had a stroke way [i]after [/i]she gave up her position on the EWTN Board. She is pretty departed, though not dead. Gosh, read her biography by Raymond Arroyo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 [quote name='Pio Nono' date='Mar 10 2006, 11:00 AM']JMJ 3/10 - First Friday of Lent No biggie, except for that time when Fr. Francis Mary said that homosexuals may feel called to the priesthood like women might feel called to the priesthood; though it may feel like a calling, it's really not at all. That's heresy, and the Bishop of Montgomery heard all about it from a LOT of people. [right][snapback]907979[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Heresy? It may be theologically incorrect, but I highly doubt it's heresy. Doesn't even sound theologically incorrect. The Church says that men with "deep-seated homosexual tendencies" are not to be admitted to the Priesthood. Hence, they are not called to the Priesthood. They may feel they are, but they aren't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 [quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Mar 10 2006, 11:30 AM']dude, she had a stroke way [i]after [/i]she gave up her position on the EWTN Board. She is pretty departed, though not dead. Gosh, read her biography by Raymond Arroyo. [right][snapback]907992[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I'm well aware of that. Mr. Arroyo stopped by FUS on his tour. : I heard the whole lecture. I just meant that usually we say "departed" in reference to death...and it seems kinda rude to use it otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pio Nono Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 JMJ 3/10 - First Friday of Lent [quote name='Era Might' date='Mar 10 2006, 09:30 AM']Heresy? It may be theologically incorrect, but I highly doubt it's heresy. Doesn't even sound theologically incorrect. The Church says that men with "deep-seated homosexual tendencies" are not to be admitted to the Priesthood. Hence, they are not called to the Priesthood. They may feel they are, but they aren't. [right][snapback]907993[/snapback][/right] [/quote] No, you're reading it wrong. Homosexuals are not to be admitted, but their ordinations are [i]valid[/i]. To say that their feeling called is like a woman's feeling called is to assert that they are [i]not validly ordained[/i], and that is heretical. Any baptized and confirmed male is a candidate for valid ordination; it's up to holy mother Church to decide who is capable beyond that. I'm having trouble locating the episode that it was on, but it was around the time the Vatican document came out about homosexuals in the seminary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 (edited) [quote name='Pio Nono' date='Mar 10 2006, 11:51 AM']JMJ 3/10 - First Friday of Lent No, you're reading it wrong. Homosexuals are not to be admitted, but their ordinations are [i]valid[/i]. To say that their feeling called is like a woman's feeling called is to assert that they are [i]not validly ordained[/i], and that is heretical. Any baptized and confirmed male is a candidate for valid ordination; it's up to holy mother Church to decide who is capable beyond that. I'm having trouble locating the episode that it was on, but it was around the time the Vatican document came out about homosexuals in the seminary. [right][snapback]908021[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I agree, but (at least from your description), Fr. Francis did not deny that the ordinations are VALID. A man who is validly ordained did not necessarily have a true calling to the Priesthood (for example, those who received Orders thanks to nepotism in the Middle Ages). Based just on your description (I haven't seen it, obviously), Fr. Francis would be saying that homosexuals no more having a CALLING to the Priesthood than women, no matter how much they "feel" they do. The analogy is appropriate, because there are a lot of people who justify the ordination of homosexual men on the basis of "feeling", just as they do the ordination of women.This is quite different from saying the ordinations of homosexual men are invalid. Edited March 10, 2006 by Era Might Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toledo_jesus Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 [quote name='Raphael' date='Mar 10 2006, 11:45 AM']I'm well aware of that. Mr. Arroyo stopped by FUS on his tour. : I heard the whole lecture. I just meant that usually we say "departed" in reference to death...and it seems kinda rude to use it otherwise. [right][snapback]908011[/snapback][/right] [/quote] oh, word. yeah, it was a cheeky article. Sounds like a cheeky book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1337 k4th0l1x0r Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 [quote name='Pio Nono' date='Mar 10 2006, 10:51 AM']JMJ 3/10 - First Friday of Lent No, you're reading it wrong. Homosexuals are not to be admitted, but their ordinations are [i]valid[/i]. To say that their feeling called is like a woman's feeling called is to assert that they are [i]not validly ordained[/i], and that is heretical. Any baptized and confirmed male is a candidate for valid ordination; it's up to holy mother Church to decide who is capable beyond that. I'm having trouble locating the episode that it was on, but it was around the time the Vatican document came out about homosexuals in the seminary. [right][snapback]908021[/snapback][/right] [/quote] You're reading too much into what he said and taking the analogy further than he intended or explicitly stated. He was talking about the calling to the priesthood, not ordination to the priesthood. Many homosexuals 'feel called' to the priesthood because it's a respectable way of answering the question 'why aren't you married or dating a woman.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1337 k4th0l1x0r Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 [quote name='Pio Nono' date='Mar 10 2006, 10:00 AM']JMJ 3/10 - First Friday of Lent No biggie, except for that time when Fr. Francis Mary said that homosexuals may feel called to the priesthood like women might feel called to the priesthood; though it may feel like a calling, it's really not at all. That's heresy, and the Bishop of Montgomery heard all about it from a LOT of people. [right][snapback]907979[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I think you mean Bishop of Birmingham. There is no Diocese of Montgomery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zunshynn Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 I love EWTN. I wish it was broadcast sometime when I'm not asleep. I love Life on the Rock, and I'm really liking their new show Parable. That is hecka sweet. Honestly it's not available enough for me to see as much as I'd like. EWTNs quality IS restricted by how much is donated to them. I think the network is fantastic. It doesn't need to be ostentatious like other television. It's Catholic. The content is what matters. Would you like a cake that looks good or a cake that tastes good? People say masses that aren't like watching TV are boring too. But Mass isn't boring, they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChild Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 [quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Mar 10 2006, 09:30 AM']dude, she had a stroke way [i]after [/i]she gave up her position on the EWTN Board. She is pretty departed, though not dead. Gosh, read her biography by Raymond Arroyo. [right][snapback]907992[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Departed only from EWTN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theoketos Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 I think that article, which is the length of a book, is more boring then EWTN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pio Nono Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 JMJ 3/10 - First Friday of Lent [quote name='Era Might' date='Mar 10 2006, 10:12 AM']I agree, but (at least from your description), Fr. Francis did not deny that the ordinations are VALID. A man who is validly ordained did not necessarily have a true calling to the Priesthood (for example, those who received Orders thanks to nepotism in the Middle Ages). Based just on your description (I haven't seen it, obviously), Fr. Francis would be saying that homosexuals no more having a CALLING to the Priesthood than women, no matter how much they "feel" they do. The analogy is appropriate, because there are a lot of people who justify the ordination of homosexual men on the basis of "feeling", just as they do the ordination of women.This is quite different from saying the ordinations of homosexual men are invalid. [right][snapback]908053[/snapback][/right][/quote] The theology of the priesthood is clear - whether or not one was called to the priesthood before ordination, one is [i]clearly[/i] called after ordination. There are homosexuals in the priesthood who feel called to the priesthood, and Fracis Mary's blanket statement excluded them from orders. I'm not accusing Francis Mary of being a heretic, but one of his statements was (in my mind) clearly heterodox. We all say heterodox things at one time or another, so it is excusable; the problem, though, is that he should know better. EDIT: I think it needs to be made clear as well that the Church does not say that homosexuals cannot be called to the priesthood; the Church says that neither [i]active[/i] homosexuals nor men who are deeply involved in the gay subculture are called to the priesthood. At this time, those homosexual men who have been celibate and disconnected from gay subculture for three years or more are free to apply for seminary. This, at least, is the reading that Francis Cardinal George gave to the seminary last December. [quote]You're reading too much into what he said and taking the analogy further than he intended or explicitly stated. He was talking about the calling to the priesthood, not ordination to the priesthood. Many homosexuals 'feel called' to the priesthood because it's a respectable way of answering the question 'why aren't you married or dating a woman.'[/quote] I don't think I'm doing anything of the sort; he unqualifiedly used the analogy, so I am allowed to take it as far as I wish. If he didn't mean it to be as strong as I have read it, then he needs to say so - I can't read his mind. And I find your description of why a homosexual might seek ordination as insulting, and I'm not even a homosexual. Though that may be the motive for some, it doesn't seem rational that a man would seek ordination so he could stay in the closet. And "feeling called to the priesthood" and "running from a problem" are two separate things altogether. [quote]I think you mean Bishop of Birmingham. There is no Diocese of Montgomery.[/quote] You're right. : I get these things confused sometimes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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