Genesis 18:1-22

[jswranch]

Did Abraham actually see God? If not, what did he see? Can God the Father be seen? Does God the Father have a body. Does the term Yahweh only refer to God the Father or the entire Trinity?

1- GEN 18:1 [b]The Lord appeared to Abraham[/b]... (my concordance says Yahweh).
18:2 [b]...[Abraham] saw three men standing nearby.[/b]

Would not the experience of an un-resurrected man viewing God result in death? How about Moses listening to God speak (EX33:11)

2- GEN 18:22 [b]While the two other men walked on farther toward Sodom, the Lord remained standing before Abraham.[/b]

Who were the other two men? If the being who remained behind was God the Father, where not the other two God the Son and God the Holy Spirit? If this was the Trinity, was it the Trinity in the flesh (100% man and 100% God) or the Trinity in the spirit, only under the under the appearance of men. What about all the other appearances of supernatural beings to humans in the bible (Gabriel, Raphael)? Were these appearances actually in the flesh or just under the appearance?

[ReinnieR]

No he didn't

we only saw God in the form of the Word incarnate.

[jswranch]

[quote name='ReinnieR' date='Mar 9 2006, 10:34 PM']...[h]e only saw God in the form of the Word incarnate.
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Could you explain this a little more? Are you saying he saw Jesus (ie the Word from John 1). This would mean that while Jesus was born once from Mary, his incarnation applied for all eternity. By this logic, it was Jesus [incarnate by his virgin birth a few thousand years later] that Moses spoke to in the tent, and it was Jesus that Jacob wrestled (Gen 32).

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='jswranch' date='Mar 9 2006, 01:07 AM']Did Abraham actually see God?  If not, what did he see?  Can God the Father be seen? Does God the Father have a body.[/quote]
Abraham did see God, and many times, but it was never God in all of his resplendent glory, but instead a manifestation or theophany of His presence. this must be so, for we know that no man has actually seen God, nor could he were he given the chance in this life:

[b]Exo 33:20 [/b]But," he said, "you cannot see my face; for man shall not see me and live."

[b]John 1:18 [/b]No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.

[b]1 Tim 6:15-16[/b]
[b]15 [/b]and this will be made manifest at the proper time by the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
[b]16 [/b]who alone has immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.

[b]1 John 4:12 [/b]No man has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.


also, God has no body. He is an immaterial being, a spirit (cf. [url="http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=John+4%3A24§ion=0&version=rsv&new=1&oq=&NavBook=col&NavGo=1&NavCurrentChapter=1"][b]John 4:24[/b][/url]), and "a spirit has not flesh and bones ([url="http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Luke+24%3A39§ion=0&version=rsv&new=1&oq=&NavBook=joh&NavGo=4&NavCurrentChapter=4"][b]Luke 24:39[/b][/url]). here are some more verses:

[b]Col 1:15 [/b]He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation

[b]1 Tim 1:17 [/b]To the King of ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

[b]Heb 11:27 [/b]By faith he left Egypt, not being afraid of the anger of the king; for he endured as seeing him who is invisible.


[quote]Does the term Yahweh only refer to God the Father or the entire Trinity?[/quote]
"Yahweh" is a transliteration of the tetragrammaton (YHWH: the divine name of God in the OT, see [url="http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Exo+3%3A14§ion=0&version=rsv&new=1&oq="][b]Exo 3:14[/b][/url]) and it means roughly "I AM" or "I am who I am." we know that Jesus likewise used this name for himself ([url="http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=John+8%3A58§ion=0&version=rsv&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ex&NavGo=3&NavCurrentChapter=3"][b]John 8:58[/b][/url]). since it relates to the Father and the Son, it must likewise relate to the Spirit. so, "Yahweh" is actually the name of the Trinitarian God, even tho the Jews only understood it as representative of the Father.


[quote]1- GEN 18:1 [b]The Lord appeared to Abraham[/b]... (my concordance says Yahweh).
18:2  [b]...[Abraham] saw three men standing nearby.[/b]

Would not the experience of an un-resurrected man viewing God result in death?  How about Moses listening to God speak (EX33:11)[/quote]
well, first, read this from the Navarre Commentary on Gen 18:1-15:
[url="http://groups.google.com/group/CIN-Daily-Word/browse_thread/thread/b80b4782439146a2/7a44d52641db74dc#7a44d52641db74dc"]http://groups.google.com/group/CIN-Daily-W...a44d52641db74dc[/url]

the three angels are usually seen here as a theophany, or a visible manifestation of the Lord. as such, it would not bring death upon Moses to see them. also, i see nothing wrong with Moses listening to God speak. God communicates with man in ways that he can understand (otherwise there would be no point). after the baptism of Jesus, a voice from the heavens declared, "this is my Son, in whom I am well pleased" (Mat 3:17). also, in Exo 33:11, when we read "Thus the LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend" we should understand "face to face" as a euphemism for the intimate relationship that Moses shared w/ the Lord.


[quote]2- GEN 18:22  [b]While the two other men walked on farther toward Sodom, the Lord remained standing before Abraham.[/b]

Who were the other two men?  If the being who remained behind was God the Father, where not the other two God the Son and God the Holy Spirit?  If this was the Trinity, was it the Trinity in the flesh (100% man and 100% God) or the Trinity in the spirit, only under the under the appearance of men.[/quote]
as the navarre commentary shows, this has been interpreted either as a trinitarian manifestation of the Lord or as simply 3 angels. this was not "Trinity in the flesh (100% man and 100% God)" but instead a theophany, a visible manifestation of the Lord. see this from the [i]Pocket Catholic Dictionary[/i]:[list][b]THEOPHANY (biblical).[/b] A direct communication or appearance by God to human beings. Instances: God confronting Adam and Eve after their disobedience (Genesis 3:8); God appearing to Moses out of a burning bush (Exodus 3:2-6); Abraham pleading with Yahweh to be merciful to Sodomites (Genesis 18:23). These theophanies were temporary manifestations. They were not like the Incarnation, which, though it began in time, will continue for all eternity. (Etym. Latin theophania; from Greek theophaneia: Theo-, God + phainein, to show.)

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[quote] What about all the other appearances of supernatural beings to humans in the bible  (Gabriel, Raphael)?  Were these appearances actually in the flesh or just under the appearance?[right][snapback]907087[/snapback][/right][/quote]
hopefully what i have presented up to this point answers your question. if you have any other questions, just let me know

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[ReinnieR]

[quote name='jswranch' date='Mar 10 2006, 11:10 AM']Could you explain this a little more?  Are you saying he saw Jesus (ie the Word from John 1).  This would mean that while Jesus was born once from Mary, his incarnation applied for all eternity.  By this logic, it was Jesus [incarnate by his virgin birth a few thousand years later] that Moses spoke to in the tent, and it was Jesus that Jacob wrestled (Gen 32).
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i mean WE (people, human beings) saw the word incarnate.

[jswranch]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Mar 10 2006, 08:58 PM']hopefully what i have presented up to this point answers your question. if you have any other questions, just let me know
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Yes you have. One last thing to clear up. From what you have already indicated, is my following statement incorrect?


[quote name='jswranch' date='Mar 10 2006, 11:10 AM']Could you explain this a little more?  Are you saying he saw Jesus (ie the Word from John 1).  This would mean that while Jesus was born once from Mary, his incarnation applied for all eternity.  By this logic, it was Jesus [incarnate by his virgin birth a few thousand years later] that...it was Jesus that Jacob wrestled (Gen 32).
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[phatcatholic]

[quote name='jswranch' date='Mar 10 2006, 01:10 PM']Could you explain this a little more?  Are you saying he saw Jesus (ie the Word from John 1).  This would mean that while Jesus was born once from Mary, his incarnation applied for all eternity.  By this logic, it was Jesus [incarnate by his virgin birth a few thousand years later] that Moses spoke to in the tent, and it was Jesus that Jacob wrestled (Gen 32).[right][snapback]908122[/snapback][/right][/quote]
no one saw Jesus until the Lord took on human flesh and dwelt among us. he didn't have a body until he was born of the virgin Mary, so its impossible to say that Moses saw Jesus. however, OT characters did see [i]manifestations[/i] of the Son of God, the second person of the Trinity. the Incarnation is something totally different, something much more profound than the OT theophanies.

does that answer ur question? ReinnieR said "we" as in, humanity. humanity has only seen [i]God himself[/i] in Jesus Christ.

[jswranch]

I got it. Clear as a bell. I look forward to sharing your responses with some of my non-Phatmass friends who are in on this discussion.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='jswranch' date='Mar 12 2006, 07:19 PM']I got it.  Clear as a bell.  I look forward to sharing your responses with some of my non-Phatmass friends who are in on this discussion.
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rock on make sure u tell me how it goes

[jswranch]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Mar 14 2006, 10:58 AM']rock on make sure u tell me how it goes
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I shared it with a good fundamentalist friend of mine. She places much trust in handwritten margin notes in the bible her father gave her. She liked much of the piece quoting scripture, but hesitates on the second half of your post, especially on the parts of the theophany. She holds that the visible manifestations were all Jesus, as her father wrote. As asked, "Then you believe the Incarnation of Christ was retro-active?" My question gave her a 'deer in the headlights' look and responded, "I will have to ask him about that." I said "If you make that assumption, then you must go the next step in the logic." She agreed.

[phatcatholic]

it looks like she is confusing "Son of God" with "Jesus." while they both refer to the same [i]person[/i], "Son of God" is usually used for the Second Person of the Trinity [i]before[/i] he became man and dwelt among us. "Jesus" is the name for this same person [i]after[/i] he became man.