Terri

[cmotherofpirl]

Read the definition of "dying" on the post.

The priest gave sound argument with reference from CCC, Catholic doctrine and medical science.

Simply, "Oh look at her! How could one do such thing??! She's still moving and smiling!! She could eat. I feel for her" won't cut it. This is not reasoning.

THe woman is not dying, therefore to starve her to death is murder.

[beng]

THe woman is not dying, therefore to starve her to death is murder.

PVS is dying.

You haven't made any case for your argument.

Use reasoning instead of female intuition/emotion etc.

[Anna]

Beng, your logic and the logic of the priest you quote disgusts me.

If you've read the reports from the Schindler's world-renowned neurologist who examined Terri, he states that she is NOT in a PVS, and that treatment could very possibly--and even probably--improve her quality of life.

If you've read her past nurses' testimonies (not one, but three of them!) Terri has been able not only to eat and swallow on her own, but also speak! Her most frequently repeated phrase was clearly, "help me!"

Due to refusal to spend any of her trust fund (which was established by the courts for her rehabilitative treatment) monies on rehab, her condition has deteriorated to its present state. But some experts claim that she could regain those skills with proper treatment.

Still, too many people are more interested in and supportive of her husband's choice of action: DEATH BY STARVATION.

You wouldn't treat a dog that way. :sadder:

God HAVE MERCY!

Read all about Terri on www.terrisfight.org.

Pax Christi. <><

[Anna]

Schiavo Case Reveals Need To Protect Disabled

BY: BARBARA OLEVITCH

(Credit: Tampa Tribune, December 14, 2003)

"Sometimes good law is not enough ...," begins the report of the guardian

ad litem for Terri Schiavo, the Pinellas County woman at the center of a

legal battle for her life.

Discussing the "enmity" that he believes prevented agreement between

Terri's husband, Michael Schiavo, and her parents, Bob and Mary Schindler,

Dr. Jay Wolfson relates that the Schindlers have lately maintained "that

Theresa is not in a persistent vegetative state, and/or that they do not

support the fact that such a medical state exists at all."

The Schindlers" position cannot be characterized as "enmity." Their sense

that "persistent vegetative state" is not an ordinary medical diagnosis is

correct.

"Persistent vegetative state," a term that was defined in 1972 and became

more familiar by the late 1980s, is grouped in the International

Classification of Diseases with "Symptoms, Signs and Ill-Defined

Conditions."

It arose because some neurologists thought it was their responsibility -

even though their understanding of the condition was not complete - to

provide authoritative backup for despairing families who wished to remove

food and fluids.

To allow certain patients to die, they crafted and publicized provisional

standard diagnostic criteria - expecting, through further research, to

improve their predictions for patients who met these criteria. In much the

same way, the Florida Legislature urgently drafted Terri's Law, intending to

rework related statutes later.

The Schindlers are certainly not alone in appreciating the serious

problems inherent in using the still-provisional predictive criteria for

life-or-death decisions.

Dr. Keith Andrews, writing in the British Medical Journal in 1996, found

in a study that out of 40 patients diagnosed as being in a persistent

vegetative state, 17 were misdiagnosed and in fact were aware and

responsive. That's a pretty high proportion of mistakes! If someone were

fishing with a net and snaring 17 dolphins for every 23 tunas, how long do

you think he'd be permitted to fish in that location?

This is why advocates for the disabled are so concerned about the Florida

law. It allows patients designated, rightly or wrongly, as being in a

persistent vegetative state to have their life supports removed, even in the

absence of an advance directive or a willing family member.

There is a very high likelihood that Terri Schiavo is a misdiagnosed

patient. If she smiled in response to her mother or said a word even once -

both have been reported - she would no longer be in a persistent vegetative

state, and all of the dire predictions about lack of improvement wouldn't

apply to her.

Patients have emerged from this state, even if they were so severely

disabled that change at first went unnoticed, and have continued their

improvement over many years.

Wolfson noted "instances" on the videotapes of Terri where she "appears

to respond specifically to her mother. But these are not repetitive or

consistent." Requiring consistency is a possible interpretation of a 1993

set of diagnostic criteria. This interpretation no longer seems apt, because

Dr. Joseph T. Giacino's work with patients he describes as minimally

conscious - who are capable of improving and even regaining full

consciousness - shows that even they don't respond consistently.

Determining whether a smile is or isn't responsive, furthermore, is

unavoidably subjective. No wonder the misdiagnosis rate of persistent

vegetative state can be so high.

Wolfson described several possible views of Terri's inner life. An

observer who believed that her inner feelings were "fear and perpetual

horror" clearly would judge her smile as unresponsive unless proved

otherwise, because he would fear condemning her to a horrible existence. In

contrast, an observer who believed she was relaxed and aware of the love of

those around her would judge her smile as responsive unless proved

otherwise, because he would fear condemning her to death.

When the legislators of Florida wrote "persistent vegetative state" into

the statutes, defining it as permanent unconsciousness, was it because they

thought that even responsive patients who were mistakenly diagnosed as

persistently vegetative were better off dead? Not at all.

The lawmakers didn't know that this statute allowing removal of food and

fluids would apply to people like Terri Schiavo, who looks exactly as if

she's smiling at her mother and probably is! When they found out, they rose

up as a group and saved her.

Have they rewritten the statutes yet, taking out the provisions that

allow any patient who has been diagnosed as being in a "persistent

vegetative state" to be dehydrated without an advance directive or to have

his living will activated as if he were dying?

No, they are still relying on Terri's Law, their quick fix, just waiting

to see if it will hold.

Terri's Law was an implicit promise to improve the Florida statute. It is

time to deliver on the promise and rework the law to protect the disabled.

Why hold our breath to see if Terri's Law is constitutional? Why risk

another dehydration crisis? Only by promptly reworking Florida's

not-yet-good-enough laws on advance directives can the Legislature give

Terri Schiavo and other disabled people more than a shaky reprieve.

Let's take Terri out of the net now before it gets dunked in the water

again.

Barbara Olevitch, Ph.D., is a clinical psychologist specializing in the

treatment of the seriously mentally ill and author of "Protecting

Psychiatric Patients and Others from the Assisted-Suicide Movement:

Insights and Strategies."

www.terrisfight.org

[beng]

Beng, your logic and the logic of the priest you quote disgusts me.

Disgusting is if we prolong her rightful death.

If you've read the reports from the Schindler's world-renowned neurologist who examined Terri, he states that she is NOT in a PVS, and that treatment could very possibly--and even probably--improve her quality of life.

Haven't read it. But more doctors assert her Permanent Vegetative State. So there.

If you've read her past nurses' testimonies (not one, but three of them!) Terri has been able not only to eat and swallow on her own, but also speak!  Her most frequently repeated phrase was clearly, "help me!"

Haven't heard of this.

If this is true, yeah, by all means continue. but if those nurse just BS-ing or mistaken then it's no use to prolong her death.

Due to refusal to spend any of her trust fund (which was established by the courts for her rehabilitative treatment) monies on rehab, her condition has deteriorated to its present state.  But some experts claim that she could regain those skills with proper treatment.

Some experts? Are these some experts the majority consensus?

Still, too many people are more interested in and supportive of her husband's choice of action:  DEATH BY STARVATION.

You're trying to demonized the opposing view. That really shows charitability on your account...

What you call "death by Starvation" might as well mean "stop to prolong death".

You wouldn't treat a dog that way.  :sadder:

This sentence, again, shows how you want to demonize the opposing view without realizing the merit of it.

God HAVE MERCY!

True. God have mercy on Terry should people bicker too long which only prolong her death.

[beng]

Schiavo Case Reveals Need To Protect Disabled

BY: BARBARA OLEVITCH

(Credit: Tampa Tribune, December 14, 2003)

"Sometimes good law is not enough ...," begins the report of the guardian

ad litem for Terri Schiavo, the Pinellas County woman at the center of a

legal battle for her life.

Discussing the "enmity" that he believes prevented agreement between

Terri's husband, Michael Schiavo, and her parents, Bob and Mary Schindler,

Dr. Jay Wolfson relates that the Schindlers have lately maintained "that

Theresa is not in a persistent vegetative state, and/or that they do not

support the fact that such a medical state exists at all."

The Schindlers" position cannot be characterized as "enmity." Their sense

that "persistent vegetative state" is not an ordinary medical diagnosis is

correct.

"Persistent vegetative state," a term that was defined in 1972 and became

more familiar by the late 1980s, is grouped in the International

Classification of Diseases with "Symptoms, Signs and Ill-Defined

Conditions."

It arose because some neurologists thought it was their responsibility -

even though their understanding of the condition was not complete - to

provide authoritative backup for despairing families who wished to remove

food and fluids.

To allow certain patients to die, they crafted and publicized provisional

standard diagnostic criteria - expecting, through further research, to

improve their predictions for patients who met these criteria. In much the

same way, the Florida Legislature urgently drafted Terri's Law, intending to

rework related statutes later.

The Schindlers are certainly not alone in appreciating the serious

problems inherent in using the still-provisional predictive criteria for

life-or-death decisions.

Dr. Keith Andrews, writing in the British Medical Journal in 1996, found

in a study that out of 40 patients diagnosed as being in a persistent

vegetative state, 17 were misdiagnosed and in fact were aware and

responsive. That's a pretty high proportion of mistakes! If someone were

fishing with a net and snaring 17 dolphins for every 23 tunas, how long do

you think he'd be permitted to fish in that location?

This is why advocates for the disabled are so concerned about the Florida

law. It allows patients designated, rightly or wrongly, as being in a

persistent vegetative state to have their life supports removed, even in the

absence of an advance directive or a willing family member.

There is a very high likelihood that Terri Schiavo is a misdiagnosed

patient. If she smiled in response to her mother or said a word even once -

both have been reported - she would no longer be in a persistent vegetative

state, and all of the dire predictions about lack of improvement wouldn't

apply to her.

Patients have emerged from this state, even if they were so severely

disabled that change at first went unnoticed, and have continued their

improvement over many years.

Wolfson noted "instances" on the videotapes of Terri where she "appears

to respond specifically to her mother. But these are not repetitive or

consistent." Requiring consistency is a possible interpretation of a 1993

set of diagnostic criteria. This interpretation no longer seems apt, because

Dr. Joseph T. Giacino's work with patients he describes as minimally

conscious - who are capable of improving and even regaining full

consciousness - shows that even they don't respond consistently.

Determining whether a smile is or isn't responsive, furthermore, is

unavoidably subjective. No wonder the misdiagnosis rate of persistent

vegetative state can be so high.

Wolfson described several possible views of Terri's inner life. An

observer who believed that her inner feelings were "fear and perpetual

horror" clearly would judge her smile as unresponsive unless proved

otherwise, because he would fear condemning her to a horrible existence. In

contrast, an observer who believed she was relaxed and aware of the love of

those around her would judge her smile as responsive unless proved

otherwise, because he would fear condemning her to death.

When the legislators of Florida wrote "persistent vegetative state" into

the statutes, defining it as permanent unconsciousness, was it because they

thought that even responsive patients who were mistakenly diagnosed as

persistently vegetative were better off dead? Not at all.

The lawmakers didn't know that this statute allowing removal of food and

fluids would apply to people like Terri Schiavo, who looks exactly as if

she's smiling at her mother and probably is! When they found out, they rose

up as a group and saved her.

Have they rewritten the statutes yet, taking out the provisions that

allow any patient who has been diagnosed as being in a "persistent

vegetative state" to be dehydrated without an advance directive or to have

his living will activated as if he were dying?

No, they are still relying on Terri's Law, their quick fix, just waiting

to see if it will hold.

Terri's Law was an implicit promise to improve the Florida statute. It is

time to deliver on the promise and rework the law to protect the disabled.

Why hold our breath to see if Terri's Law is constitutional? Why risk

another dehydration crisis? Only by promptly reworking Florida's

not-yet-good-enough laws on advance directives can the Legislature give

Terri Schiavo and other disabled people more than a shaky reprieve.

Let's take Terri out of the net now before it gets dunked in the water

again.

Barbara Olevitch, Ph.D., is a clinical psychologist specializing in the

treatment of the seriously mentally ill and author of "Protecting

Psychiatric Patients and Others from the Assisted-Suicide Movement:

Insights and Strategies."

www.terrisfight.org

The article starts by saying that there's no such thing as PVS but later on say that out of 40 patients diagnose with PVS 33 are really in PVS.

Anyway, it's not surprising that there are opposite views (even Church fathers differ in opinion). But in the case this happened, the majority with sound argument is more credible.

[cmotherofpirl]

And the sound arguement is that you don't murder people because they are inconvenient, or meet your criteria of what constitutes "quality of life".

[beng]

And the sound arguement is that you don't murder people because they are inconvenient, or meet your criteria of what constitutes "quality of life".

You, and many other, should stop trying to demonize the oppossing view.

It makes you look like a bigot.

If me and other agree to discontinue Terry Schiavo's treatment it's not because of murder. But we have strong argument (backed with teachings) to NOT prolong her death.

[Anna]

According to records provided by Terri's parents, as far back as

Feb 2000 – Affidavits were filed by 3 doctors stating Terri can swallow and is not PVS.

By Jun 1 2001 - Affidavits by five (5) Doctors were filed stating Terri was not in a PVS.

In addition, May 7, 2001 - Affidavit filed by Dr. Hammesfahr (neurology) states Terri is not in a PVS. Hammesfahr is a nobel prize winning neurologist.

Oct 23, 2001 - Schiavo files a motion to reverse the Appellate Court neurological tests order.

Oct 2, 2002 - Michael Schiavo files petition to prohibit the media from seeing Terri’s recent neurological examination videotapes or airing the video’s to the public after they have been presented to the court as evidence.

Oct 2, 2002 - Michael Schiavo petitioned the court to authorize Terri’s cremation.

These are affidavits are public record. I hope that Father Gerald D. Coleman, S.S can back his claims that

In 2002 Five phisicians examined Teri and Three of them concluded that she was in a Permanent Vegetative State (PVS).

Fr. Coleman also recommends a living will, which is something the American Life League is very concerned about. ALL has suggestions for a "Loving Will," that respects life....there is a difference.

I'm sure glad I'm not an elderly person living in Florida, and I'm certain that if an elderly loved one of mine needed medical care, I'd do my utmost to see to it that he received care from someone other than the likes of Ronald Cranford, who has concluded. "There's no chance for reversebility and no chance for treatment."

Pax Christi. <><

Edited December 22, 2003 by Anna

[cmotherofpirl]

You, and many other, should stop trying to demonize the oppossing view.

It makes you look like a bigot.

If me and other agree to discontinue Terry Schiavo's treatment it's not because of murder. But we have strong argument (backed with teachings) to NOT prolong her death.

Terri is not dying, and the only thing that can change that is a court order to starve her to death.

If defending life makes me a bigot, its a much better category to be in than someone who is condoning murder.

[beng]

According to records provided by Terri's parents, as far back as

Feb 2000 –  Affidavits were filed by 3 doctors stating Terri can swallow and is not PVS.

By Jun 1 2001 - Affidavits by five (5) Doctors were filed stating Terri was not in a PVS.

In addition, May 7, 2001 - Affidavit filed by Dr. Hammesfahr (neurology) states Terri is not in a PVS.  Hammesfahr is a nobel prize winning neurologist.

Oct 23, 2001 - Schiavo files a motion to reverse the Appellate Court neurological tests order.

Oct 2, 2002  - Michael Schiavo files petition to prohibit the media from seeing Terri’s recent neurological examination videotapes or airing the video’s to the public after they have been presented to the court as evidence.

Oct 2, 2002 - Michael Schiavo petitioned the court to authorize Terri’s cremation.

These are affidavits are public record.  I hope that Father Gerald D. Coleman, S.S can back his claims that

I'm sure glad I'm not an elderly person living in Florida, and I'm certain that if an elderly loved one of mine needed medical care, I'd do my utmost to see to it that he received care from someone other than the likes of Ronald Cranford, who has concluded. "There's no chance for reversebility and no chance for treatment."

Pax Christi. <><

If she's not in PVS, by all mean continue the treatment.

PS

See how I never try to demonize the opposing view and use emotion/intuition than rational judgment.

Edited December 22, 2003 by beng

[beng]

Terri is not dying, and the only thing that can change that is a court order to starve her to death.

If defending life makes me a bigot, its a much better category to be in than someone who is condoning murder.

What makes you a bigot is how you demonize the oppossing view when this opposing view is motivated for the goodness of the victim (the same as your motivation)

And again by saying

"If defending life makes me a bigot, its a much better category to be in than someone who is condoning murder."

You are demonizing the opossing view and act like a bigot.

[cmotherofpirl]

If she's not in PVS, by all mean continue the treatment.

PS

See how I never try to demonize the opposing view and use emotion/intuition thanrational judgment.

WE do not have the right to kill someone in PVS.

THat is the whole point.

WE do not decide someone else should die because they do not meet our standards of living.

If someone is ALREADY dying then food and water is a moot point. But until that point is reached we take care of them.

[Anna]

If you feel I'm demonizing you or your position, then consider the company you're in.

I also "demonize the message" of abortionists and Planned Parenthood! (A.K.A. murderers for hire.)

Pax Christi. <><

[cmotherofpirl]

... for the goodness of the victim..

you are talking about KILLING her.

And I point that out and I am "demonizing the opposition."

:D