Woman Rabbi teaches Relegion at Catholic school

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Mar 7 2006, 04:57 PM']no, it teaches that they don't have the fullness of truth.
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that is modernist double speak for-

1. they are wrong (ie teach something "false" therefore a False relegion)
2. their relegion is not salvaic

[Azriel]

[hijack] EENS - I'm really not trying to be rude, but it isn't "relegion" it is religion. I'm sorry, its the English Major in me coming out, and its spelled incorrectly in all of your posts. My apologies if this comes across rude.[/hijack]

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

know problom. i havee speilililing issuoes soometimes. me thinnks i shoold woork on itt.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

EENS, this is more of an aside, but you claim to have read so many things...have you ever read the theologians of the Council of Trent rather than the commentaries on them written by dissenters of Vatican II? Have you ever read the whole Talmud rather than commentaries of it by those who stand against it? Have you ever read anything without reading into it with a preconceived notion of what it's saying?

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

* Gregory IX (1227-1241) wrote to the Western Bishops and Sovereigns ordering that all copies of the Jewish Talmud be apprehended. He charged William of Auvergne, Bishop of Paris, with organizing an investigation to verify whether or not the Talmud contained articles against the Catholic Faith. At its conclusion, the Talmud was condemned and copies of it were burned publicly in Paris in 1242. At the demand of the Jews, the Talmud was submitted to a new examination in 1248 and was definitively condemned by William of Auvergne along with the masters of theology of Paris, among them St. Albert the Great. (6) In the work Excerpta talmudica, written to justify this condemnation, one reads:

“By a secret design of Divine Providence, the errors, blasphemies, and outrages contained in the Talmud have escaped the eyes of the doctors of the Church until this day. The wall has finally been removed and one can clearly see the reptiles, the abominable idols that the House of Israel adores.”(7)

[Resurrexi]

OMYGOSH! This thread is mad! ok... where do I start.... EENS is totally right! Oh, and the things that I will say in the following post are right too, and anything that contradicits them is wrong:

Catholicism is the only true religion and all other religions are false.

-That being said, Talmudism (also known as modern Judiasim) is false.

The New Covenant fufilled the Old Convenant, and now only the New Covenant exists.

-That being said, the Old Covenant ceases to exist.

Israel is the chosen people of God.

-Since the Old Convenant no longer exists, the Catholics, who are the people of God's New Covenant, are now Israel and the chosen people of God.

The Jews are a religion, not a race.

-That being stated, we must also state that a member of the Catholic Church is no longer a member of the false religion they once belonged to.

-That being said, all people who were once of the False Talmudic Jewish religion, and are now members of the Catholic Church, are no longer Jews.

-Since those who were once Jews and are now members of the Catholic Church denied their false religion, they are now part of Israel, the Chosen Peopel of God, though they were not part of Israel before their conversion.

We firmly believe that no member of a false religion should teach in a school of the One True Religion, for the teacher who is a member of an evil religion may instill in the minds of the students who are members of the One True Religion evil ideas.

We firmly believe that the Great Culture of Europe is the best because it was molded by the One True Religion.

God Bless You,
Tyler

[Era Might]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Mar 7 2006, 10:21 AM']Then what are we discussing? I came aboard to help Sam defend himself that the modern day practice of Judaism is indeed false, albeit from unfulfillment or otherwise. Discussing the people or the race is a different story. One can be of the nation of Israel and not practice Judaism.

Before I comment further, I was wondering if you could give citation for this or context:It would seem to say, at least implicitly, the God has kept some out of the New Covenant (and thus salvation). That is if you are speaking about Judaism here and not the people of Israel. I would agree that the Children of Israel have survived to this day, but to say that a religion that positively denies the salvific action of Christ (the Talmud) has survived by Divine Providence almost speaks to double predestination. Some context would be nice here.
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God has providentially allowed Israel to persist without knowing her Messiah. He did not will this actively, but permitted it, in the same way he permitted the sin of Adam to bring about a greater good. Israel did not know the time of its visitation when Christ came, but God has allowed it to persist to serve as a witness to the Church of her own roots. Our paths will eventually "converge" when the Messiah is known by all.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='StThomasMore' date='Mar 7 2006, 08:38 PM']The Jews are a religion, not a race.
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They are called Jews because they are the descendants of the people of Judea. They are a race as well as a religion. In fact, Hitler had down 1/8 Jewish blood as the minimum for extinction...I'm 1/8 Jewish...you can't be 1/8 of a religion.

[Paphnutius]

[quote]God has providentially allowed Israel to persist without knowing her Messiah. [b]He did not will this actively, but permitted it, in the same way he permitted the sin of Adam to bring about a greater good.[/b] Israel did not know the time of its visitation when Christ came, but God has allowed it to persist to serve as a witness to the Church of her own roots. Our paths will eventually "converge" when the Messiah is known by all.[/quote]Thank you for clarifying that. When someone mentions providence I have this knee jerk to assume active willing on God's part.

[quote]I think calling all of Judaism a "false religion" would go against what the Church teaches.[/quote]You are correct, but I hope that I have not overspoken so as to imply that I believe all of Judaism is false .

Judaism is false in that it denies the salvific act of Christ. Does this vitiate the entire belief system? Do this mean that they are wrong to believe in one self-revealing God? Does this mean that they are wrong to believe in the Old Testament Scriptures? Not in the least. What it means is that when it comes crunch time (meaning dealing with faith and Christ) it is false. There is only one Truth (Christ, the only begotten Son of God, is the Messiah) and to contradict this Truth is false.

So while there may be elements of truth in Judaism, it is ultimatly false in that it fails to satisfy.

[Era Might]

I don't think we're talking about the same thing. There's a difference between saying that Jews believe some false things, and saying that they are no longer truly Jews or are no longer truly practicing the Jewish religion.

There have always been Jews who believed false things (for example, the Sadducees who did not believe in the ressurection of the body). They were not therefore "false Jews", and their Judaism was not therefore "false". It was still truly Judaism. As I said, Judaism has never been a monlithic faith. It has always been diverse and changing.

Jews today are still truly Jews. They still worship the God of Abraham, they still look to the Torah and the Law for their faith. There's no doubt that we cannot agree with everything Jews today or ancient Jews believed. But they are still the people of Israel.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Mar 7 2006, 08:34 PM']I don't think we're talking about the same thing. There's a difference between saying that Jews believe some false things, and saying that they are no longer truly Jews or are no longer truly practicing the Jewish religion. [right][snapback]906073[/snapback][/right][/quote] There are of course Jews today, but the point is that the Jewish religion today is no longer the true religion for it has been fulfilled in Christ. That is why it is substantially different than ancient Judaism. This is not an accidental change, but something substantial to the religion itself. The covenant made with God's chosen race was fulfilled in Christ meaning that the belief itself must change.

[Myles Domini]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Mar 8 2006, 02:46 AM']There are of course Jews today, but the point is that the Jewish religion today is no longer the true religion for it has been fulfilled in Christ. That is why it is substantially different than ancient Judaism. This is not an accidental change, but something substantial to the religion itself. The covenant made with God's chosen race was fulfilled in Christ meaning that the belief itself must change.
I would agree with this concerning ancient Judaism.

But there is one big difference. The forefathers, let us limit ourselves here to Abraham, Moses, and David, would have recongized the savior and follow Him. The religion of the forefathers looked forward to the Messiah. The Messiah has come and delivered His people. Modern Jews' religion is different from their forefathers in the fact that the religion of Abraham and David was in fact Christocentric. Today's Jews are not at all Christocentric.
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Absolutely and I dont see why there is a problem accepting this. The New Testament clearly points to Jesus Christ as to he to whom the Old Testament saints looked. One cannot believe that its lawful to believe that the Messiah has come and has not come: He either has or He hasn't. Whilst its true that God revealed the Old Law to the people Israel its also true that He revealed the New Law to them also. Everyone remember St Paul saying 'first for the Jew then for the Gentile'? Accordingly, whilst unlike other religions Jews follow a divinely revealed deposit the time of that covenant has come to an end. Subjectively they cannot be held accountable for being raised in ignorance of Christ but objectively in denying Jesus is the Christ they commit themselves to fallacy.

[rkwright]

[quote name='Myles' date='Mar 7 2006, 09:56 PM']Absolutely and I dont see why there is a problem accepting this. The New Testament clearly points to Jesus Christ as to he to whom the Old Testament saints looked. One cannot believe that its lawful to believe that the Messiah has come and has not come: He either has or He hasn't. Whilst its true that God revealed the Old Law to the people Israel its also true that He revealed the New Law to them also. Everyone remember St Paul saying 'first for the Jew then for the Gentile'? Accordingly, whilst unlike other religions Jews follow a divinely revealed deposit the time of that covenant has come to an end. Subjectively they cannot be held accountable for being raised in ignorance of Christ but objectively in denying Jesus is the Christ they commit themselves to fallacy.
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I agree with you guys on this!

But still can the teacher not teach old testament? Or would you feel that her background would severly hamper her objectivity when teaching it?

Maybe like Pap was saying, the modern Jew would not translate the way a Jew in the time of the scriptures would? So if the point is to have a viewpoint similar say to the Jews had during Jesus's time would have had, having a modern Jew teach it completely defeats the purpose?

Edited March 8, 2006 by rkwright

[Era Might]

More from the Holy See:

[quote][b]The permanence of Israel (while so many ancient peoples have disappeared without trace) is a historic fact and a sign to be interpreted within God's design. We must in any case rid ourselves of the traditional idea of a people punished, preserved as a living argument for Christian apologetic[/b]. It remains a chosen people, "the pure olive on which were grafted the branches of the wild olive which are the gentiles" (John Paul II, 6th March, 1982, alluding to Rom 11:17-24). We must remember how much the balance of relations between Jews and Christians over two thousand years has been negative. We must remind ourselves how the permanence of Israel is accompanied by a continuous spiritual fecundity, in the rabbinical period, in the Middle Ages and in modern times, taking its start from a patrimony which we long shared, so much so that "the faith and religious life of the Jewish people as they are professed and practised still today, can greatly help us to understand better certain aspects of the life of the Church" (John Paul II, March 6th, 1982). Catechesis should on the other hand help in understanding the meaning for the Jews of the extermination during the years 1939-1945, and its consequences.

--"Notes on the correct way to present the Jews and Judaism in preaching and catechesis in the Roman Catholic Church"

[url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/relations-jews-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_19820306_jews-judaism_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontific...judaism_en.html[/url][/quote]

Edited March 8, 2006 by Era Might

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Mar 7 2006, 06:03 PM']that is modernist double speak for-

1. they are wrong (ie teach something "false" therefore a False relegion)
2. their relegion is not salvaic
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Just because a religion does not have the FULLNESS of Truth, i.e. 100% correct about everything, does not mean they are lacking in any truth at all. As far as the Talmud goes, it is an important Jewish document, however, Judaism is not like Catholicism in that they do not have a strict way of determining what is and is not orthodox based on sacred texts. You can call yourself Jewish and completely ignore the Talmud. They don't put it on the same level as the Torah. You can't say the same thing for a person who calls themselves Catholic and does not believe the teachings of the Church.

[quote name='Raphael' date='Mar 7 2006, 09:49 PM']They are called Jews because they are the descendants of the people of Judea.  They are a race as well as a religion.  In fact, Hitler had down 1/8 Jewish blood as the minimum for extinction...I'm 1/8 Jewish...you can't be 1/8 of a religion.
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I'm 1/8 Jewish too.