Woman Rabbi teaches Relegion at Catholic school

[MC Just]

[quote name='Paladin D' date='Apr 1 2006, 12:06 PM']So you believe it was a mistake for John Paul the Great to establish relations with the Jewish people, and try to reconcile with them?

Because that is what EENS is implying.
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i didnt say that and thats not what im implying either. I was just telling sam that it has nothing to do with that

im done here. ya know some of yall make it very unpleasant to be at phatmass. We can't have anything strictly catholic now a days.

Edited April 1, 2006 by MC Just

[Paladin D]

[quote name='MC Just' date='Apr 1 2006, 01:12 PM']i didnt say that and thats not what im implying either. I was just telling sam that it has nothing to do with that

im done here. ya know some of yall make it very unpleasant to be at phatmass. We can't  have anything strictly catholic now a days.
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You were agreeing with his selection of quotes, which pretty much painted a picture of the Jews as damned, evil, scum bags. Then you said that those who would "counter" EENS' post would think of some lame excuse, thus establishing an agreement with Sam's position.

So naturally, for John Paul the Great to try establish relations with the Jews and try to [b]reconcile[/b] with them, would mean his actions were wrong, since they contradict what the Saints said in the earlier centuries.

I'm not trying to bait you at all, but I find it confusing that you are agreeing with Sam, then turn around and say you didn't imply such a thing. I know you didn't, but Sam did, and you agreed with them. (I did notice how you tried not to go down the whole "Vatican II is evil" road, which I think is cool).

[MC Just]

[quote name='Paladin D' date='Apr 1 2006, 12:18 PM']You were agreeing with his selection of quotes, which pretty much painted a picture of the Jews as damned, evil, scum bags.  Then you said that those who would "counter" EENS' post would think of some lame excuse, thus establishing an agreement with Sam's position.

So naturally, for John Paul the Great to try establish relations with the Jews and try to [b]reconcile[/b] with them, would mean his actions were wrong, since they contradict what the Saints said in the earlier centuries. 

I'm not trying to bait you at all, but I find it confusing that you are agreeing with Sam, then turn around and say you didn't imply such a thing.  I know you didn't, but Sam did, and you agreed with them.  (I did notice how you tried not to go down the whole "Vatican II is evil" road, which I think is cool).
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ok im not done. First of all theres no need for us to "reconcile" with them, they need to join us. As for the Quote, well a Canonized saint said that. A saint who was canonozed inffalibly, I believe. Do you think the Saint was wrong for saying that?

Edited April 1, 2006 by MC Just

[Paladin D]

[quote name='MC Just' date='Apr 1 2006, 01:26 PM']ok im not done. First of all theres no need for us to "reconcile" with them, they need to join us.  As for the Quote, well a Canonized saint said that. A saint who was canonozed inffalibly, I believe. Do you think the Saint was wrong for saying that?
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I cannot say, I am not the most well-versed apologist, nor do I know the arguments/reasons for such "supposed contradictions" in Church teaching.

However, I don't believe John Paul the Great was wrong in his actions. If he was, I doubt he would be labeled a "Great" anyway.

[Era Might]

Be careful about quoting Saints just because they're Saints. The Saints were products of their time, and would always submit themselves to the future judgement and guidance of the Church, as should we.

[Paladin D]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Apr 1 2006, 01:36 PM']Be careful about quoting Saints just because they're Saints. The Saints were products of their time, and would always submit themselves to the future judgement and guidance of the Church, as should we.[right][snapback]931774[/snapback][/right][/quote]

Agreed.

They lived faithfully in God's service, however, they were still human, just like us.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='Peccator' date='Apr 1 2006, 01:37 PM']...we're not the ones flirting with schism...
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its not one saint. its an entire 2,000 years of saints!

[Era Might]

[quote name='Paladin D' date='Apr 1 2006, 02:38 PM']Agreed.

They lived faithfully in God's service, however, they were still human, just like us.
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Exactly. They were canonized because of their holiness, not their intellect.

Edited April 1, 2006 by Era Might

[Paladin D]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Apr 1 2006, 01:40 PM']Exactly. They were canonized because of their holiness, not their intellect.
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If that was the case, Albert Einstein would be way up there.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Apr 1 2006, 01:01 PM']im not accusing the jewish race of anything. nor the ethnicity. I am also not saying that ALL Jews are guilty of the murder of christ. But anyone who practices the relegion of Judiasm is cursed.
Matthew 27:25
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This is how conspiracies collide...

If we believe that the modern Jews are not [i]really [/i]Jews, but instead "Talmudists", then they can't be cursed, because they don't practice the religion of Judaism.

Moving to the broad brush of condemnation against Jews...

For what it's worth, St. Paul (who seems to oppose Judaisers) continued to practice some of the rituals of Judaism after his conversion (e.g. the Nazarite vow made in [url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/acts/acts18.htm#v18"]Acts 18:18--link[/url]). He later ritually purified himself with others according to Jewish ritual ([url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/acts/acts21.htm#v23"]Acts 21:23--link[/url]).

And if you'd like to condemn all post-Crucifixion Jews, St. Paul clearly states in [url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/acts/acts22.htm"]Acts 22 (link)[/url]:
1) that he is a Jew (not past tense)
2) he describes the disciple Ananias as "a devout observer of the law" ([url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/acts/acts22.htm#v12"]Acts 22:12--link[/url])
3) he calls the Jews "My brothers and fathers." (Acts 22:1)

So, the statement, "anyone who practices the relegion of Judiasm is cursed" has to be tempered by the fact that the first generation(s) of Jews who converted did not immediately leave the Synagogue and all Old Testament ritual (for some Biblical proof, see [url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/acts/acts21.htm#v20"]Acts 21:20--link[/url]).

[salveregina]

We have a woman who is a former Quaker pastor (still Quaker, though) who teaches moral theology.

If that sounds like it might be problematic, I assure you...

IT IS.

[avemaria40]

Catholics should be teaching moral theology in Catholic schools but if you're going to study other religions I don't see a problem of having a teacher of that religion teach it.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Brother Adam' post='905054' date='Mar 7 2006, 12:05 AM']
The Catholic Church has also changed through 2000 years. We no longer say mass in Aramaic. I've also read portions of the Babylonion Talmud, and while it rejects Christ, the Jewish people non-the-less remain the choosen people of God. In Johns Revelation the 144,000 are chosen from the 12 tribes. Certianly they no longer have the temple, and thus no longer have sacrifice, and the line of priests is broken, but it is not false. To assert this is anti-semetic.
[/quote]

I'm going to respond to this over a month later to point out that you're looking at it as a Christian.

Our religion is allowed and meant to grow. It was founded that way and our relationship to the Law is set up as such.

However, before the Divine Incarnation the Jewish religion was based strictly on law. It was not meant to be changed because it was given by God and only God could take it back.

And just so you do trust my sources, it's from a Cistercian Priest with a doctorate (who studied in Rome) who teaches the history of philosophy on campus (and we went through the Jewish tradition as well and why it should not and could not have had the flourishing of theology like Catholicism).

Also, there are now liberal Jews, conservative Jews, and Orthodox Jews. We have Orthodox Christians, Protestant Christians, Catholics, whom do you agree with? Only the Orthodox Jews (whom most people do not refer to when speaking of Jews in the modern world) still hold to much of what was taught years before.

[quote]Uh, Sam....you're not calling Judaism a false religion are you? You will get banned again for making such a ridiculous claim; not to mention anti-semetic.[/quote]

Sam's right in saying that the Jewish religion today is not the Jewish religion of 2000 years ago (or better yet, when it was actually founded). It was not meant to "progress" as it has, which God did not deem.

While Judaism originally was right, today it is lacking terribly. As far as Sam used the word, Judaism is really false to how it was conceived by God and there's not reason or good explanation for it, as I responded to Brother Adam.

[quote]Israel is not extrinsic to the mystery of the Church. Unlike other non-Catholic religions, Judaism is already a part of that mystery. The Church's relation to Judaism is as something which is intrinsic to her own vocation. Judaism, or rather, Israel, remains a witness to the Church, first, of God's covenant of love with them, and second, of our own roots.[/quote]

As always Israel must keep her part of the covenant, and as so many people on here will admit, she hasn't done that. She's "grown and progressed."

[quote]Together we must remember God and his wise plan for the world he created. As we read in the Book of Wisdom, he is the "lover of life" (11: 26).

This year also marks the 40th anniversary of the promulgation of the Second Vatican Council's Declaration Nostra Aetate, which opened up new prospects for Jewish-Christian relations in terms of dialogue and solidarity. This Declaration, in the fourth chapter, recalls the common roots and the immensely rich spiritual heritage that Jews and Christians share.

Both Jews and Christians recognize in Abraham their father in faith (cf. Gal 3: 7; Rom 4: 11ff.), and they look to the teachings of Moses and the prophets. Jewish spirituality, like its Christian counterpart, draws nourishment from the psalms. With St Paul, Christians are convinced that "the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable" (Rom 11: 29; cf. 9: 6, 11; 11: 1ff.). In considering the Jewish roots of Christianity (cf. Rom 11: 16-24), my venerable Predecessor, quoting a statement by the German Bishops, affirmed that "whoever meets Jesus Christ meets Judaism" (Insegnamenti, Vol. III/2, 1980, p. 1272).[/quote]

I think it's reasonable to say that there's a difference between relations and teaching Catholics Judaism from someone who thinks it's truth...I don't really want that for my own kids.

[quote]are we assuming the teacher can't teach objectively? isn't that the role of every teacher[/quote]

Actually, that's a modern idea of what teaching should be ut it may not be "offensive" to anyone.

True teachers give their opinion.

[quote]Judaism was never a meticulously defined belief system. The Pharisees and the Sadduccees disagreed markedly over core doctrines such as the ressurrection of the Body. Yet they were still Jewish.[/quote]

Can you give me a source for this? I mostly find it to be philosophers like Moses Maimonides, whom you can argue is not a true Jew, that believe this.

Also, though doctrine wasn't set up perfectly, it did command how people were to act and they've turned their backs on it.

As Catholics we can have changing practices because they are not given to us necessarily by God (such as meatless Fridays). However, the Jews cannot. Only because of the Death and Resurrection of Our Lord (and God) are we allowed this freedom. The problem with how people are approaching Sam on this one is an issue of bias, perhaps a disagreement with him, or perhaps because we are Catholics. Before Christ, however, things were different. I think they should be different now, but only because I know the Incarnation took place. For Jews their religion, if they truly believe it, cannot have changed into what it is today...It makes Israel no longer God's chosen one. Simply, had the Incarnation happened, modern Judaism as it stands would have caused the complete separation between God and His chosen people.

[qfnol31]

[quote]i agree with Era about the peoplehood thing.. Judaism is more than a religion, it is a whole culture with all kinds of traditions people should know about.[/quote]Were only this a history class...

[quote]Yes but my point is that the Law no longer applies. The Law was an essential part of Judaism, a part that is longer there. That would constitute a substantial change meaning that modern Jews are different from ancient Jews. This is most notable due to the establishment of a New Covenant with God's People.[/quote]

Seems you beat me to saying all this!

[quote]But that doesn't mean they are no longer truly Jewish. The most important dimension of the Law was not the Mosaic rituals, but the decalogue, which is still an essential element of Judaism, as is the Torah.[/quote]How many laws are there in the Mosaic Law?

You only believe in growth because of your Christian background.

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='931683' date='Apr 1 2006, 12:45 PM']
If you want to learn about catholics you don't go to a mormon. , you go to the Catholic Church.
So if you want to teach your children about the jewish faith, you go to a rabbi.
This non-catholic in question is not teaching catholics about catholicism, but about her religion . There is nothing wrong with getting accurate information on a subject.
Do you expect your doctor to explain your taxes to you?[/quote]

If I were learning about Judaism I would go to a Rabbi and have tons of fun with it. I would sit in class if I could and take good notes, prepare well, and enjoy it thoroughly.

I would also keep up in my Catholic studies and make sure that I balance it well. I would keep a spiritual director handy at all times that I might not be swayed from the True, Good, and Beautiful. I would hopefully know theology well enough that it wouldn't be a problem. Unfortunately, most of these kids do not have this option.

But from a rabbi would I want to learn Old Testament as Truth? I'd be a little more scared. Even more so because she's a woman, and while I like women, the Old Testament seems against them as rabbis like we don't believe in women priests.

I would not learn anything about Catholic theology from a woman "priest." I honestly couldn't trust her.

[ReinnieR]

[quote name='Paladin D' post='931669' date='Apr 1 2006, 12:40 PM']
Well when it comes to faith and morals, yeah. But I don't think I should be forced to find a Catholic to teach me how to build a chair, or make eggs.
[/quote]
it would be nice if Jesus taught me how to build a chair.

even if St. Joseph taught me. then i could brag that St. Joseph taught me how to build a chair