Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted March 7, 2006 Share Posted March 7, 2006 i wouldn't go that far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted March 7, 2006 Share Posted March 7, 2006 [quote name='brendan1104' date='Mar 6 2006, 07:50 PM']How do we know that Novus Ordo's are valid when THE VERY WORDS OF OUR LORD ARE CHANGED AND TRUE THEOLOGY OF THE MASS IS NO LONGER BEING TAUGHT? The Liturgies of the Word and Eucharist are given equal importance... the list goes on and on... Any sane Catholic would know that attending a sacreligious (and supposedley licit) mass of doubtful validity is far less pleasing to God than to attend a definitely valid Mass without any sacrilege. Tell me this Cam, yes or no: May we in conscience, and according to the CCL may we recieve sacraments that we know could be of doubtful validity? This would include doubtful form, matter, and intention. [right][snapback]904624[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Words of Consecration for the Tridentine Mass: [quote][b]HOC EST ENIM CORPUS MEUM.[/b] [b]HIC EST ENIM CALIX SANGUINIS MEI, NOVI ET AETERNI TESTAMENTI:[/b] MYSTERIUM FIDEI: QUI PRO VOBIS ET PRO MULTIS EFFUNDETUR IN REMISSIONEM PECCATORUM.[/quote] Words of Consecration for the Missa Normativa: [quote][b]HOC EST ENIM CORPUS MEUM[/b] [b]HIC EST ENIM CALIX SÁNGUINIS MEI NOVI ET AETÉRNI TESTAMÉNTI,[/b] QUI PRO VOBIS ET PRO MULTIS EFFUNDÉTUR IN REMISSIÓNEM PECCATÓRUM. HOC FÁCITE IN MEAM COMMEMORATIÓNEM. MYSTERIUM FIDEI[/quote] There is no substantial change in the wording. There is change in the order of the wording, however it is all included. AND the acutal words of consecration are bolded. They are IDENTICAL. To answer your question about the CIC (sic. CCL? I assume that is the Code of Canon Law.....); we have this; [quote name='Can. 2'] For the most part the Code does not define the rites which must be observed in celebrating liturgical actions. Therefore, liturgical laws in force until now retain their force unless one of them is contrary to the canons of the Code.[/quote] [quote name='Can. 838'] §1. The direction of the sacred liturgy depends solely on the authority of the Church which resides in the Apostolic See and, according to the norm of law, the diocesan bishop. §2. It is for the Apostolic See to order the sacred liturgy of the universal Church, publish liturgical books and review their translations in vernacular languages, and exercise vigilance that liturgical regulations are observed faithfully everywhere.[/quote] So, in conscience one is to submit to the diocesan bishop and the Aposolic See. For the most part Liturgical Law is not covered in Canon Law. Finally, an illicit Mass is sacrilegious. This applies specifically to the SSPX celebrating Mass while suspended and excommunicated. That is the exact definition sacrilege. The misuse of something sacred. If a priest is suspended and celebrates Mass publicly without jurisdiciton that is a misuse of his office and [i]de facto[/i] sacrilege. No one denies that abuses go on in the Missa Normativa. That is no shock. However, as stated earlier in this thread, there is a procedure for dealing with that. There is no excuse that is valid for attending an SSPX Mass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted March 7, 2006 Share Posted March 7, 2006 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Mar 6 2006, 09:00 PM']i wouldn't go that far. [right][snapback]904732[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Do you submit to the Holy Father with full and complete submission? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted March 7, 2006 Share Posted March 7, 2006 you bet. except when he teaches novelties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dspen2005 Posted March 7, 2006 Share Posted March 7, 2006 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Mar 6 2006, 08:00 PM']i wouldn't go that far. [right][snapback]904732[/snapback][/right] [/quote] then w/ all due respect, you are not in full communion w/ Rome, by your own words. The Holy Father does not teach novelties, he is the guardian of the Deposit of Faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted March 7, 2006 Share Posted March 7, 2006 you can not judge wether or not I am in communion with Rome. Sorry that is not your job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted March 7, 2006 Share Posted March 7, 2006 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Mar 6 2006, 09:14 PM']you can not judge wether or not I am in communion with Rome. Sorry that is not your job. [right][snapback]904749[/snapback][/right] [/quote] How about answering my question then.....you can do the job yourself, if you answer this teensy-eensy little question: [quote]Do you submit to the Holy Father with full and complete submission?[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesChristi Posted March 7, 2006 Share Posted March 7, 2006 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Mar 6 2006, 08:13 PM'] its good to see a fellow teenage trad. Brendan guess what? i am attending an Independent chapel next week. its going to be trad central. well first i have to make sure its not sede. [right][snapback]904668[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I'm starting to worry about you, Sam. Why on earth would you go to an independent chapel? It seems antithetical to our Catholic faith. Any Christian who claims to be independent from the authority of the Pope is a Protestant. Once you begin to dabble among those who have strayed from the barque of Peter, you place your soul in danger. I'll pray the Rosary for you later this evening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted March 7, 2006 Share Posted March 7, 2006 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Mar 6 2006, 09:09 PM']you bet. except when he teaches novelties. [right][snapback]904740[/snapback][/right] [/quote] How do you know what is novelty and what is not? That is not your job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted March 7, 2006 Share Posted March 7, 2006 I find it interesting that you accept with complete trust everything the past Pope's have said, yet you doubt most everything the Popes of the present have said, disregarding their words as "novelties." [quote]you can not judge wether or not I am in communion with Rome. Sorry that is not your job.[/quote] I find much irony in your statement. Maybe you should think twice about judging the Holy Father and the licit mass of the Church? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted March 7, 2006 Share Posted March 7, 2006 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Mar 6 2006, 09:14 PM']you can not judge wether or not I am in communion with Rome. Sorry that is not your job. [right][snapback]904749[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Take your own advice. You cannot judge whether Mass is licit or illicit. Valid or invalid. Sorry, that is not YOUR job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Domini Posted March 7, 2006 Share Posted March 7, 2006 Sam I would advise you go to Confession more regularly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted March 7, 2006 Share Posted March 7, 2006 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Mar 6 2006, 08:53 PM']im not in the SSPX. Im an indultarian. [right][snapback]904721[/snapback][/right] [/quote] True, you are not in the SSPX. However there is no such thing as an "indultarian." If you think that there is, then you have misunderstood the WHOLE POINT of the indult Mass and what surrounds it, liturgically and theologically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted March 7, 2006 Share Posted March 7, 2006 [quote name='MilesChristi' date='Mar 6 2006, 08:20 PM']I'm starting to worry about you, Sam. Why on earth would you go to an independent chapel? It seems antithetical to our Catholic faith. Any Christian who claims to be independent from the authority of the Pope is a Protestant. Once you begin to dabble among those who have strayed from the barque of Peter, you place your soul in danger. I'll pray the Rosary for you later this evening. [right][snapback]904755[/snapback][/right] [/quote] They are called independent because their canonical position is not regular. I would rather attend a church in full communion, and one that is not in schism, but it is not possible to find an indult in that area. [quote name='Cam42' date='Mar 6 2006, 08:23 PM']How do you know what is novelty and what is not? That is not your job. [right][snapback]904757[/snapback][/right] [/quote] no it is not. But I will follow what Bishops have told me, and what their protests are. [quote name='fidei defensor' date='Mar 6 2006, 08:24 PM']I find it interesting that you accept with complete trust everything the past Pope's have said, yet you doubt most everything the Popes of the present have said, disregarding their words as "novelties." I find much irony in your statement. Maybe you should think twice about judging the Holy Father and the licit mass of the Church? [right][snapback]904758[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I do not doubt most of what the pope teaches. I also regard the new mass as licit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted March 7, 2006 Share Posted March 7, 2006 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Mar 6 2006, 09:28 PM']They are called independent because their canonical position is not regular. I would rather attend a church in full communion, and one that is not in schism, but it is not possible to find an indult in that area. no it is not. But I will follow what Bishops have told me, and what their protests are. I do not doubt most of what the pope teaches. I also regard the new mass as licit. [right][snapback]904767[/snapback][/right] [/quote] For the ONE ZILLIONTH TIME, attendance at the indult is not your right. Attendance at a Mass which is in communion with Rome is. If you regard the Missa Normativa as licit, why wouldn't you go? There is no reason not to. The bishops that you are deferring to are schimatic and illict and "stem from an incorrect view of tradition." Their protests are invalid. There is no compromise. The bishops in question will either submit or remain in schism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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