What is wrong with FSSP?

[Cam42]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Mar 5 2006, 10:54 PM']correct me if I am wrong:

the letter says:

    I. One may go to an SSPX mass AS LONG AS one does not wish to seperate one's self from Rome, and one is not supporting the schism.
 

you Say:

    I. Only go to an SSPX if there is no other mass.
i see disagreement here.
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[quote name='Msgr. Perl']We have already told you that we cannot recommend your attendance at such a Mass and have explained the reason why. If your primary reason for attending were to manifest your desire to separate yourself from communion with the Roman Pontiff and those in communion with him, it would be a sin. If your intention is simply to participate in a Mass according to the 1962 Missal for the sake of devotion, this would not be a sin.[/quote]

It says that in and of itself it is not sinful to attend the Mass, if it is for devotional purposes. It says NOTHING about fulfilling your Sunday obligation. You are misinterpreting the words of the bishop.

Also, you do not, DO NOT have a right to attend the Mass of 1962. As Msgr. Perl states:

[quote][b]You also state in your letter that the Holy Father has given you a 'right' to the Mass according to the 1962 Roman Missal.[/b] [u]This is not correct.[/u] It is true that he has asked his brother Bishops to be generous in providing for the celebration of this Mass, but [b]he has not stated that it is a 'right'.[/b] Presently [u]it constitutes an exception to the Church's law and may be granted when the local Bishop judges it to be a valid pastoral service[/u] and when he has the priests who are available to celebrate it. [/quote]

You only have the right to attend the Missa Normativa. To attend the indult is an exception to the norm. And the SSPX is NEVER the norm. What part of this don't you understand?

[dspen2005]

charity pmers... remember charity. my seminary profs always tell us -- we have to have charity for ourselves, charity for our neighbour...

[Cam42]

[quote name='dspen2005' date='Mar 5 2006, 11:04 PM']can one be in schism and be in complete fullness of the Faith?
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No. One must be in complete union with the Pope in order to have fullness of the Faith. If one is schismatic, then he is not fully in union with the Pope, because he is disobeying on a certain manifest level.

[dspen2005]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Mar 5 2006, 10:11 PM']No.  One must be in complete union with the Pope in order to have fullness of the Faith.  If one is schismatic, then he is not fully in union with the Pope, because he is disobeying on a certain manifest level.
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so taking Cam42's answer... the paradigm put forth by EENS in his response -- "maybe one prefers the TLM" -- would logically allow for one to attend a group far worse in its relation with the Church simply because they have the Tridentine Rite. does someone else see a problem with this? or am I the only one -- if I am, then I am illustrating this point very poorly.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote]Letter by Msgr. Camille Perl Regarding Society of St. Pius X Masses

Una Voce America has received a communication from the Pontifical Ecclesia Dei Commission, concerning an article which appeared in The Remnant newspaper and various websites. At the request of the Commission, we are publishing it below.

Pontificia Commissio "Ecclesia Dei" January 18, 2003

Greetings in the Hearts of Jesus & Mary! There have been several inquiries about our letter of 27 September 2002. In order to clarify things, Msgr. Perl has made the following response.

Oremus pro invicem.

In cordibus Jesu et Mariæ,
Msgr. Arthur B. Calkins

Msgr. Camille Perl's response:

Unfortunately, as you will understand, we have no way of controlling what is done with our letters by their recipients. Our letter of 27 September 2002, which was evidently cited in The Remnant and on various websites, was intended as a private communication dealing with the specific circumstances of the person who wrote to us. What was presented in the public forum is an abbreviated version of that letter which omits much of our pastoral counsel. Since a truncated form of this letter has now become public, we judge it appropriate to present the larger context of our response.

In a previous letter to the same correspondent we had already indicated the canonical status of the Society of St. Pius X which we will summarize briefly here.

1.) The priests of the Society of St. Pius X are validly ordained, but they are suspended from exercising their priestly functions. To the extent that they adhere to the schism of the late Archbishop Lefebvre, they are also excommunicated.

2.) Concretely this means that the Masses offered by these priests are valid, but illicit i.e., contrary to the law of the Church.

Points 1 and 3 in our letter of 27 September 2002 to this correspondent are accurately reported. His first question was "Can I fulfill my Sunday obligation by attending a Pius X Mass" and our response was:

[b]"1. In the strict sense you may fulfill your Sunday obligation by attending a Mass celebrated by a priest of the Society of St. Pius X."

His second question was "Is it a sin for me to attend a Pius X Mass" and we responded stating:

"2. We have already told you that we cannot recommend your attendance at such a Mass and have explained the reason why. If your primary reason for attending were to manifest your desire to separate yourself from communion with the Roman Pontiff and those in communion with him, it would be a sin. If your intention is simply to participate in a Mass according to the 1962 Missal for the sake of devotion, this would not be a sin."
[/b]
His third question was: "Is it a sin for me to contribute to the Sunday collection a Pius X Mass" to which we responded:

"3. It would seem that a modest contribution to the collection at Mass could be justified."

Further, the correspondent took the Commission to task for not doing its job properly and we responded thus:

"This Pontifical Commission does not have the authority to coerce Bishops to provide for the celebration of the Mass according to the 1962 Roman Missal. Nonetheless, we are frequently in contact with Bishops and do all that we can to see that this provision is made. However, this provision also depends on the number of people who desire the 'traditional' Mass, their motives and the availability of priests who can celebrate it.

"You also state in your letter that the Holy Father has given you a 'right' to the Mass according to the 1962 Roman Missal. This is not correct. It is true that he has asked his brother Bishops to be generous in providing for the celebration of this Mass, but he has not stated that it is a 'right'. Presently it constitutes an exception to the Church's law and may be granted when the local Bishop judges it to be a valid pastoral service and when he has the priests who are available to celebrate it. Every Catholic has a right to the sacraments (cf. Code of Canon Law, canon 843), but he does not have a right to them according to the rite of his choice."

We hope that this puts in a clearer light the letter about which you asked us.

With prayerful best wishes for this New Year of Our Lord 2003, I remain

Sincerely yours in Christ,
Rev. Msgr. Camille Perl Secretary

[/quote]

[Cam42]

Thanks for reposting what I already posted......you are helping me prove my point Sam.

[dspen2005]

EENS you are skirting the point being made concerning the hypothetical situation.... why?

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

what are you talking about?



I do not understand. Pearl says it fufills sunday obligation, what else is there?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Mar 6 2006, 02:49 PM']what are you talking about?
I do not understand. Pearl says it fufills sunday obligation, what else is there?
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I said its a [color=red]LAST resort.[/color] So if you are a hundred miles from the nearest Chruch faithful to Rome, go there. Otherwise be in your nearest regular parish on Sunday morning.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

I think he's refering to this:
[quote]If your intention is simply to participate in a Mass according to the 1962 Missal for the sake of devotion, this would not be a sin.[/quote]
Personally, I would defer to more authoritative texts from the Holy See that make it clear the Society is in schism.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Mar 6 2006, 03:49 PM']what are you talking about?
I do not understand. Pearl says it fufills sunday obligation, what else is there?
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In a strict sense, yes. Like, in a strict sense, attending a Divine Liturgy of the Orthodox does the same thing. However, as you so often FORGET TO INCLUDE:

[quote name='Msgr. Perl']We have already told you that we cannot recommend your attendance at such a Mass and have explained the reason why.[/quote]

Why is that reason, Sam?

[quote name='Paul Augustin Card. Mayer'][b]As you well know, responses to the illicit ordination of bishops at Econe on June 30, 1988, and wishing to uphold the principles which had been established in the previous and unfortunately unfruitful dialogue with Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, the Holy Father issued Ecclesia Dei motu proprio on July 2, 1988.

While insisting that the root of the schismatic act of Archbishop Lefebvre lies in an "incomplete and contradictory notion of tradition" which fails to "take sufficiently into account the living character of tradition", he also maintained with equal firmness that it is necessary that all the pastors and other faithful have a new awareness not only of the lawfulness, but also of the richness for the Church of a diversity of charisms, traditions of spirituality and apostolate."[/b]

Consequently, addressing himself "to all those Catholic faithful who feel attached to some previous liturgical and disciplinary forms of the Latin tradition" and not just to former adherents of Archbishop Lefebvre, he expressed his will "to guarantee respect for their rightful aspirations." In order to provide for these legitimate desires of the faithful he established this pontifical commission and indicated his mind with regard to its primary task by stating:

"Respect must everywhere be shown for the feelings of all those who are attached to the Latin liturgical tradition, by a wide and generous application of the directives already issued some time ago by the Apostolic See for the use of the Roman Missal according to the typical edition."

Consequently, Your Excellency, we wish to encourage you to facilitate the proper and reverent celebration of the liturgical rites according to the Roman Missal of 1962 wherever there is genuine desire for this on the part of priests and faithful. [u][i][b]This should not be construed as a promotion of that missal in prejudice to the one promulgated eight years later, but simply a pastoral provision to meet the "rightful aspirations" of those who wish to worship according to the Latin tradition as celebrated for centuries.[/i][/b][/u]

In the light of our Holy Father's motu proprio, then, we offer the following guidelines and suggestions:

1.There is no reason now why the so-called "Tridentine" Mass cannot be celebrated in a parish church where this would be a genuine pastoral service to the faithful asking for it. [u][b][i]Care should be taken, of course, for a harmonious integration into the already existing parish liturgical schedule.[/i][/b][/u]

2.The regularity and frequency of the celebration of this liturgy, whether to be celebrated on Sundays, holy days and/or weekdays, will depend on the needs of the faithful. Our recommendation is that in places where the faithful have made a request for the regular celebration for the Mass according to the 1962 Roman Missal a weekly Sunday and holy day Mass be scheduled in a central location and at a convenient time on a trial basis for a period of several months. Afterwards further evaluation and adjustment could be made.

3.[u][b][i]Of course the celebrant of the "Tridentine" Mass should not fail in their preaching and contacts with the faithful attending such Masses to emphasize their own adherence to the legislation of the universal church and their acknowledgment of the doctrinal and juridical value of the liturgy as revisited after the Second Vatican Council.[/i][/b][/u] Under such conditions, it would seem unnecessary, even unduly painful, to impose further restrictions upon those who wish to attend such celebrations.

[b]The very fact that, avoiding the possibilities offered by schismatic groups, they wish to come to celebrations authorized by the bishop of the diocese may be considered a sign of good will and desire of full ecclesial communion.[/b][/quote]

An SSPX Mass fails in all of these areas, Sam.

First, the SSPX has predjudice to the 1962 Missal.
Secondly, the SSPX does not wish for harmonious integration with the current parish structure, which exists.
Thirdly, the SSPX will not adhere to the legislation of the Vatican Council II.

With those criteria not met, Msgr Perl states in the cited letter, (thanks for providing that incidentally) that the Church cannot recommend attending the Mass. While it is valid, it is illict and is not to be recommended.

Again, the question is raised. Why attend an SSPX Mass when a valid and licit Mass is offered in the area? Answer that question, Sam.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

Because the faith taught at NO churches in many areas is not orthodox. By going to the SSPX i see women covering their heads, the Tridentine mass, A community, no irrevrence, and most importantly the true faith bieng taught.

[Ora et Labora]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Mar 6 2006, 03:00 PM']Because the faith taught at NO churches in many areas is not orthodox. By going to the SSPX i see women covering their heads, the Tridentine mass, A community, no irrevrence, and most importantly the true faith bieng taught.
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But the NOM is [i]valid[/i] Sam. You know that...even if you do prefer the Latin Mass.

Kristina

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

yes the NO mass is valid. I defiently think it is inferior though.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Mar 6 2006, 05:00 PM']Because the faith taught at NO churches in many areas is not orthodox. By going to the SSPX i see women covering their heads, the Tridentine mass, A community, no irrevrence, and most importantly the true faith bieng taught.
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On what authority do you make this statement about the various churches in union with Rome, Sam?

I see women cover their heads at the parish I go to. I have spoken to in the past about the irreverence which can and has been applied to the Tridentine Mass.

And how do you know what the true faith is Sam? It is for the Church to determine, not any one indvidual. We, as individuals, are to assent to the Faith of Jesus Christ contained in His Church. By making the statement that you are making, you are coming very close to adhereing to the schism by which you claim doesn't exist.

Let's not forget, "Where there is Peter, there is the Church." We owe our full obedience to him and his successors. By attending an SSPX Mass, for any other reason, other than ABSOLUTE necessity, of locale; then one is not being obedient to [i]Motu Proprio Eccelsia Dei.[/i]