Was Jesus Born?

[missionseeker]

This is from Catholic Christianity by Peter Kreeft.


[quote]  The Creed confesses that Jesus is both "concieved by the power of the Holy Spirt" and "born of the Virgin Mary" This one person has two natures: He is both fully human and fully divine.
  This is a mystery and a paradox, but not a logical contrdiction, not impossible. It is not one persons and two persons or one nature and two natures, but one person with two natures. Human nature itself contains a similar though not identical paradox. Each of us, though only one person, is both visible and invisible, tangible and intangible, material and spiritual at once by having both a body and a soul.
  "The unique and  altogether singular event of the Incarnation of the Son of God does not mean that Jesus Christ is part God and Part man, nor does it imply thathe is the result of a confused mixture of the divine and the human. He trulty became man while truly remaining God." (CCC464)
He is not half human and half divine as a centuar is half human and half horse, or as Mr. Spock on [i]Star Trek[/i] is half human and half vulcan. The Church that denied his full humanity (such ancient gnosticism or modern New Age versions of it) and all heresies that denied his full divinity (such as ancient Arianism or contemporay Modernism).  [/quote]

[dspen2005]

let me not understand that i may believe; let me believe so that i may understand

(Someone famous said this... or something similar to it)

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Let me see if I can help sort this out...

God the Father eternally begets the Son. This is not a biological generation, but our language, of course, fails to grasp the concepts of God.

God the Father eternally begets the Son by "speaking" forth Himself. Therefore, the Father speaks His own entire Being and the Son is that Eternal Word. Again, human language fails miserably to grasp the concept.

Because the Son is one-in-being with the Father (homoousios), they have the same Nature. The only distinction between them is one of relation. They are two Persons with the exact same nature, but one is the generator and one is the generated (i.e. Father and Son).

All was created through the Son.

When we fell, God sought to restore us and in the fullness of time, sent His Son to become man.

The Person of the Son of God took on human nature in its entirety, sans original sin.

At this point, having become man, the Son of God took on the human name "Jesus." Christ refers to His position as the anointed one, the Messiah.

This means that Jesus Christ has two natures which are hypostatically united.

One of the natures is the divine nature, that of the Son of God. The other is the human nature. However, the personal subject in Jesus Christ is the Son of God. The Son of God is the personal subject, the seat of all Jesus' personal actions.

Jesus Christ therefore has two natures:

Human intellect, human will, human soul, human body, etc. (everything proper to human nature).

Divine intellect, divine will, divinity, etc. (everything proper to divine nature).

Everything in Jesus' humanity was entirely and voluntarily submissive to the divinity.

There are not two persons working together in Jesus (which would forsake true unity), but one divine Person with a divine nature, all of which is "wrapped" in a human nature.

Finally, by incorporating the Church, which is His Body, He allows us to join with Him. Now, since He was raised from the dead and ascended, that would mean that His body went with Him, and since He associates the Church entirely with Himself, what happens is sort of (human language fails again) like what would be the case if He were to bear us all in Himself (and He does, but in a deeper sense than can be expressed) to God. Thus, in Him, we are restored, exalted to heaven, and brought into the love of the Holy Trinity, because as that love flows through Him, so in the same way, as we are united to Him (and, to an extent, in as much as we are united to Him), that love flows through us.

I suggest you read this: [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=48426"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=48426[/url]

It's a bit long, just a chapter of a book, though. It covers a wide range of Christological heresies. Sometimes studying whom the Church says Christ [b]is not[/b] can help us understand Whom He [b]is[/b]

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote name='dspen2005' date='Mar 4 2006, 09:05 PM']let me not understand that i may believe; let me believe so that i may understand

(Someone famous said this... or something similar to it)
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[/quote]

Both Sts. Anselm and Augustine said something like that. At the end of the first chapter of his [i]Prosologion[/i], Anselm says,

[quote]For I do not seek to understand so that I may believe; but I believe so that I may understand. For this also I believe, that 'unless I believe, I shall not understand.' [Isaiah 7:9][/quote]

Your Brother In Christ,

Jeff

[Quietfire]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Mar 5 2006, 10:58 AM']Let me see if I can help sort this out...

God the Father eternally begets the Son.  This is not a biological generation, but our language, of course, fails to grasp the concepts of God.

God the Father eternally begets the Son by "speaking" forth Himself.  Therefore, the Father speaks His own entire Being and the Son is that Eternal Word.  Again, human language fails miserably to grasp the concept.

Because the Son is one-in-being with the Father (homoousios), they have the same Nature.  The only distinction between them is one of relation.  They are two Persons with the exact same nature, but one is the generator and one is the generated (i.e. Father and Son).

All was created through the Son.[right][snapback]903345[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

And keep in mind that this is outside of time, so as not to confuse.
It wasnt as though the Father was there alone and decided to "have" a son.
As humans we must wait until we can have children.
Obviously, this is not the case with God. Where the Father is, the Son has always been and is. Where the Son is, the Holy Spirit has always been and is.

(and this can get even more confusing when you consider the word "where" and "when" are also a part of time.)

One didnt come before the others.
They are, all three, co-eternal.
Three Persons, the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit.
One nature, God.

[Quietfire]

I get the feeling by your initial post that you have confusion in the fact that the second Person of the Trinity became man, suffered, died, was resurrected and ascended to Heaven as man...and therefore that might mean that God has changed?

Is that correct?

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='Myles' date='Mar 4 2006, 08:12 PM']Why? Everything you need to know was explained in the links provided by Sts Cyril and Aquinas. I dont see what you need to know that they did not cover?
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[/quote]
HAHAHAHAHA. Your befuddlement in this matter amuses me.


When are theologians going to realize that the sheep speak plain English?

Boil it down so we don't have to think too hard.

[rkwright]

[quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Mar 8 2006, 11:50 AM']HAHAHAHAHA.  Your befuddlement in this matter amuses me.
When are theologians going to realize that the sheep speak plain English? 

Boil it down so we don't have to think too hard.
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[/quote]

If the question is that important to a person, their usually willing to get the best answer, and sometimes that means pulling out a dictionary and really working the brain.

I can tell you 4 X 4 = 16 and you can accept it. But if you want an explaination of why you better be ready to learn what 4, X, =, and 16 mean.

Edited March 8, 2006 by rkwright

[Proud2BCatholic139]

Well, the way I was taught in CCD was...

the Most Holy Trinity existed before mankind. Jesus was in Heaven, before Adam and Eve as the second person of the Holy Trinity. God knew the world's plan, and so that is why Jesus was born here on earth, to be like man and bring salvation to all. Jesus always existed, that is my belief.

[Semalsia]

I read this thread again and I think I understand now. Don't know why I didn't the last time. Thanks for answering my silly question.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='Mar 21 2006, 02:01 PM']I read this thread again and I think I understand now. Don't know why I didn't the last time. Thanks for answering my silly question.
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[/quote]

Phatmass is like that. If you wade through everything enough eventually the truth seeps through

[Theoketos]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 21 2006, 01:03 PM'] Phatmass is like that. If you wade through everything enough eventually the truth seeps through
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[/quote]

Its like acquiring a taste for a good wine.

[infinitelord1]

yes since jesus is god and god always existed.

[infinitelord1]

also, i like to think of god in a more philosophical way......rather than as this loving god. Not to take away from gods love or nothing. But if you think about it.........anything that says the opposite of the truth would be a lie.....right? Well, jesus says in the bible that the devil (which represents evil) is the father of all lies. It all philosophically combines like one big puzzle. I really think that anything which is the opposite of the truth is a sin. To go deeper.........without our god given ability to reason and be consciously aware.......there would be no concept of lies and truth. There would be no concept of mathematics, science, etc. Now think of this.......did algebra exist before it was discovered. Yes!!!! it wouldnt make a difference if you were able to travel back in time before algebra existed and try to apply the same algebraic equations just as you would today. Point being......the truth exists whether we realize it or not, and i think we can both agree that there is a truth to this world.......and we cant really measure how much truth exists....when it comes to god its a matter of belief. When it comes to faith.......it really depends on how willing you are to believe. The more willing you are to believe......the more you start to realize that there is a god. Just give it a chance semalsia.......and keep digging.......you will start to see.......and when you start to see.......you will see how blind you were beforehand. Going back to opposite of truth=sin..... they say jesus came to take away the sins of the world. I personally interpret this as this man, who contains god within, revealing many truths, that are necessary to our wellbeing, to us. Jesus (or god)came and spoke the truth......and there is something more to this. If you think about it god could have came in any form and spoke these truths........but he chose to be like us. Now the big question is......why didnt he just walk around like a burning bush or a light seeming through the clouds........i believe he appeared as man, because he didnt want to take our free-will away from us. If we were givin the truth......we would have no other choice but to follow the truth. But god chose to appear as man because he didnt want to take our gift of freewill away.

[Paphnutius]

[quote]anything that says the opposite of the truth would be a lie.....right?[/quote]Actually a lie presupposes the intention to decieve in the one communicating. So not all falsehoods are lies morally speaking for one must have the intention to deceive for it to be a lie.

[quote]did algebra exist before it was discovered. Yes!!!![/quote]It depends on your definition of existence. Algebra is a system that only has mental existence. It is a mode of describing the relationships of numbers (which also only have mental existence). While it describes something that may indeed have physical existence, algebra only has mental existence so it is indeed debatable as to whether it existed before it was "discovered."

Just some tangents...

Edited March 22, 2006 by Paphnutius