knowledge of salvation

[thessalonian]

[quote]So if I accept that Ignatius believed in the Catholic understanding, which I'm not sure I do, what about all the other major Christian centers in the 100s? [/quote]

What about all the other Christian center's in the 100's? Well actually Ignatius writes to 7 of them. He does not speak of the Eucharist to all of them but there is no indication anywhere in his writings that there are theological divides between him and them.

One should take note the geographical spread of the writers that missionseeker quotes above. From Asia to Rome to Africa. Most of the known world at the time. This in a time when there wasn't even a pony express.

Edited March 17, 2006 by thessalonian

[missionseeker]

I apologise [i]profusely[/i]. I got the post numbers mixed up. I have no idea how. I said post 22 i meant post 39 (i know- how can you make a mistake like that? ) I'm so sorry.

I put the post I meant below to make sure I got right.

I'm soooo sorry.


[quote name='missionseeker' date='Mar 4 2006, 12:32 AM']If there is one Truth and many different religions (I'm talking Christian religions, not other religions, theistic or not) and all the religions teach different things, how can they all be correct? You yourself have said the Catholic Church is incorrect. Is just the Catholic Church incorrect and all other denominations correct?

BUT if "correct" means beleiving Jesus Christ dies in attonement for our sins, then the Catholic Church isn't incorrect. And something cannot be True and unTrue at the same time.


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my question is how can something be correct and incorrect. Not correct in some things and not correct in others, but absolutely right yet also wrong.

[jesussaves]

Yes of course I believe in hell. Why do you ask?

I suppose if we begin defining our versions of heaven and hell that might be fruitful. Do you believe that in degrees of hell? Maybe your higher degrees of hell is the same as my lower degrees of heaven.

[missionseeker]

Sorry.
[quote]"If they are in sin, they change. If they don't change, they probably will, but God won't judge them for where they happen to be when they die. If they never change, which I'm not sure can happen, but I honestly don't know, God will simply detract from them the glories they could have achieved." [/quote]

This is confusing me.


My understanding of Hell is an eternity without God and without hope of ever eventually being able to be with God.

I don't know if there are lesser degrees or greater degress although, to me it seems like eternity without God is Eternity without God. And Being in Heaven with God is being in Heaven with God. Someone will correct me if I am wrong.

I've never read Dante's Divine Comedy ( Istarted it like 2 years ago, but I was 15 and only got half way through the first part) I don't know if that is partly what you are reffering to or not.

[phatcatholic]

isn't this thread really about the "perspicuity" of Scripture (or the ease in which Scripture can be understood)? that seems to be the main point of jesussaves's first post:
[quote]The Gospel is simple. God gives us basic Truth, instead of complicated lies. [. . .] Our purpose on earth is simple[/quote]
this "simplicity" of scripture is what we should be discussing. the tangential issues we have discussed so far in this thread actually serve the purpose rather well. the fact that we differ on so many important issues, including doctrines that have a very direct bearing on our salvation, shows that scripture is hardly as "simple" as protestants make it out to be. of course, the thousands of protestant denominations are another glaring example.

look at all the many ways in which scripture tells us we are saved:[list]"By standing firm you will gain life." --Luke 21:19

"For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done." --Matthew 16:27

"Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life." --John 6:54

"Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?" …Jesus replied… "If you want to enter life, obey the commandments." --Matthew 19:16-17

"And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life." --Matthew 19:29

"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life." --John 3:36

"By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you." --1 Corinthians 15:2

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God." --Ephesians 2:8

"But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety." --1 Timothy 2:15

"Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory." --Romans 8:17

"Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret." --2 Corinthians 7:9

"In it [the Ark] only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ…" --1 Peter 3:20-21

"You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone." --James 2:24

"Beloved, we are God's children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every one who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure." --1 John 3:2-3
[/list]what is a new christian, with no tradition or ecclesial body to inform him, to make of all of this? he is surely lost in all of these seemingly contradictory statements. paul says faith alone is sufficient, but James says faith alone is not sufficient. maybe if i just leave my family and my household i'll be saved. or, if i'm a woman, i'll just have a couple of children. maybe i can just hope and that will be enough. or should i be baptized? maybe i should suffer and be sorrowful too....

the perspicuity of scripture is what is at issue here, and we simply cannot navigate it on our own. we need an infallible guide, a rule with which to compare our many divergent, personal interpretations. we [i][b]must[/b][/i] have one, or the Lord is imprudent and short-sighted.

now, the protestant may respond and say, "we only disagree on the secondary issues, not the primary ones." how can anyone say this w/ a straight face when we disagree even on how one is to be saved? he may go on to say that we have our infallible guide in the Holy Spirit, we don't need the Church. i agree that the Holy Spirit is to be our guide, but the Lord surely has not given this Spirit of Truth to all people individually. if this were so, then we would all come to the same conclusions whenever we picked up the bible and read it for ourselves. (unless, of course, the Spirit contradicts itself). instead, Jesus Christ gave the Spirit of Truth to his apostles, and they passed this Spirit on to their successors so that it would forever remain in the Church, guiding them and protecting them from error so that all that is complex about Scripture will be made clear.

and this leads us back to our original topic. Scripture is perspicuous not in the hands of each individual believer, but in the hands of the Church. She makes clear what is confusing to us and resolves all its apparent contradictions. for more on the perspicuity of scripture, go here:
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/directory/index.php/cat_id/57"]http://www.phatmass.com/directory/index.php/cat_id/57[/url]

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[jesussaves]

I could go through and give a rebuttal to each of your verses. The fact of the matter is that the Spirit guides everyone. Those who believe the simplicity that Jesus died for their sins, that's adequate. Everything else is secondary; those who believe secondary things so varyingly, they are on the path to the Truth. That's all that matters. These basic tenants are not as far and in between as you think. You ask how I know? The holy spirit acting how I just described. I ask how you know the Catholic Church is true? You can claim the holy spirit, and that you have just as much right as I do to make that claim. That's fine, I can grant you that. It doesn't make you right though. And it doesn't imply in anyway as you seem to think that it does that the only way to know what the spirit is saying is through some third party mediator. Not that third party mediation couldn't be the way; it's just not the way the holy spirit leads.
The fact is that Catholics such as yourself here seem to rejoice in the confusion. That way they can say they alone have the solution to salvation. The ironic thing is that they are the ones who created the confusion. That's classic manipulation: give someone a problem, then tell em you are the only one that has the solution. Worse off, use secondary confusion to insist upon primary confusion simplicity that is really simple. All these complicated things are things indeed secondary issues; the issues that you make as complicated regarding salvation are not complicated as you construe them to be.

Edited March 20, 2006 by jesussaves

[HisChild]

If phatcatholic can claim the Holy Spirit guides him, but you state he can claim such, but it doesn't make him right, how in the world can you claim the Holy Spirit can only work through you 'rightly'? That's pure arrogance. Your arguments are circular, and unfortunately, create the confusion and chaos you are accusing others to create.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Mar 19 2006, 08:02 PM']The fact is that Catholics such as yourself here seem to rejoice in the confusion. That way they can say they alone have the solution to salvation. The ironic thing is that they are the ones who created the confusion. [/quote] That is funny, I thought that some "revolutionaries" who thought that they knew more than the magesterium of the Church created all this confusion.

[Mateo el Feo]

Just some random, late-night thoughts...
[quote name='jesussaves' date='Mar 19 2006, 09:02 PM']The fact of the matter is that the Spirit guides everyone.[/quote]
I assume that you really mean, "everyone who agrees with your identified core Christian belief (i.e. Jesus died for our sins)."

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Mar 19 2006, 09:02 PM']Those who believe the simplicity that Jesus died for their sins, that's adequate. Everything else is secondary; those who believe secondary things so varyingly, they are on the path to the Truth. That's all that matters.[/quote]
OK, so let's look at this proposition of simple Christianity. What about those who agree with your primary statement, yet believe that Jesus was not God? Do they hold an "adequate" amount of truth? What about those who believe that the god of the Old Testament was evil?

I know some people who belong to non-denomination churches. The big selling points for such a church include a belief that: Christianity can and should be simplified, dogmas/doctrines are bad, and the Bible is sufficient as a guide for the local pastor/flock. Not surpisingly, the pastor assumes the roll of shephard, lays down the law, and all of a sudden, membership in the non-denominational church requires adherence to a new creed (note: a little cult of personality can begin, too).

In this example, how does the local pastor determine what is essential (i.e. adequate) vs. non-essential (i.e. secondary)? If every non-denominational pastor (and Christian) is truly being guided by the Holy Spirit, why is there such a non-uniformity in these micro-denominational creeds. For example, one pentecostal group teaches that members must prove their faith by handling snakes and drinking poison. Using the Bible as his rule of faith, the pastor read:
[quote name='Mark 16:18']They will pick up serpents (with their hands), and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not harm them. They will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."[/quote]
This pastor and his flock hold a creed which includes your "adequate" belief; but has extra ones that they consider essential. And the question remains: how does someone resolve questions of essential vs. non-essential, aside from, "God told me so."?

[quote]These basic tenants are not as far and in between as you think. You ask how I know? The holy spirit acting how I just described.[/quote]
It seems that you are arguing that Catholics overestimate differences among your set of "true Christians." This is a actually a pretty hard thing to pin down, because of the fluidity of creeds and believers among small flocks. For example, if pastor A says something members don't agree with, that portion of the flock can simply find another pastor who will tell them what they want to hear ([url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/2timothy/2timothy4.htm#v3"]2 Tim 4:3-4 link[/url]).

[quote]I ask how you know the Catholic Church is true?[/quote]
I'll ask you, what is the pillar and foundation of Truth?

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Mar 19 2006, 09:02 PM']The fact is that Catholics such as yourself here seem to rejoice in the confusion. That way they can say they alone have the solution to salvation. The ironic thing is that they are the ones who created the confusion. That's classic manipulation: give someone a problem, then tell em you are the only one that has the solution. Worse off, use secondary confusion to insist upon primary confusion simplicity that is really simple. All these complicated things are things indeed secondary issues; the issues that you make as complicated regarding salvation are not complicated as you construe them to be.[right][snapback]915362[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
"Secondary confusion"..."insisting upon primary confusion"...OK, I'm confused!

Seriously, Catholics shouldn't rejoice in confusion. I don't know of any individuals who are happy about the theological anarchy outside of the Catholic Church. But, it is perfectly Christian to identify disunity, because Christ Himself desired believers to be united together ([url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/john/john17.htm#v11"]John 17:11 link[/url]).

Throughout the history of the Church, Catholic have lamented the fragmentation of belief of Christians, primarily caused by a various heresies. During the Second Vatican Council, the Catholic Church's bishops expressed their lament at Christian disunity ([url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_25051995_ut-unum-sint_en.html"]Ut Unim Sint[/url]).

This is not an anomoly. If you believe in the Holy Bible, read the letters to the various churches. They are filled with correction of errors, criticisms of the local churches. It's clear that someone has the authority and the mission to correct these local churches. Can you imagine if the Corinthians told Saint Paul that they considered his input, but that the local pastor rejected his letters?

[Illustro]

Thanks Brother Adam for this wonderful work you have put together here for us. Post #26 This is great. I've learned what I've been searching to find. The balance between faith and works. I was having difficulty understanding it and now it's clear. Well appreciated.

The second part of the work though, I'm not too interested in because I notice that Roman Catholics can be arrogant about their religion enough to knock down others without even realizing it. I'm not a Protestant, though I read about what happened to those people who were murdered by the Roman Catholic church, under the pope, back in the early days after Christ. They were tortured on ugly man-made instruments and murdered by the very religious order you profess is so perfect. That is why they protested. It isn't perfect. No religion is. They all are part of the whole. A learning experience. To come to know about the Savior.

That is a part of history you should read up on. Here's something that will help you to understand how evil it was for them. It's long and there are many links...but it's well worth the effort to find out. We're not here to separate and split...but to bring together, in common under The Lord. All religions are tending towards He. So let's find what binds together, rather than splits apart and causes strife. Fight evil with good. Submitting unto the Lord. Even the Islamic religion thinks that they are the perfect religion and they would fight evil with evil to prove it. Most of them anyway. That's how they were taught. I see though that you have an excellent understanding of what truly is meant by the Grace of God. To love one another... as God so loved us that He gave His only Son for our salvation. That's beyond religion.

[url="http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/anti1.htm"]http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/anti1.htm[/url]

[Illustro]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Mar 19 2006, 09:02 PM']I could go through and give a rebuttal to each of your verses. The fact of the matter is that the Spirit guides everyone. Those who believe the simplicity that Jesus died for their sins, that's adequate. Everything else is secondary;
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[color=blue]38: And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
39: And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
40: But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41: And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42: And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43: And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.[/color]

St. Luke. Chapter 23

It was THAT simple!

[Brother Adam]

[quote]The second part of the work though, I'm not too interested in because I notice that Roman Catholics can be arrogant about their religion enough to knock down others without even realizing it. I'm not a Protestant, though I read about what happened to those people who were murdered by the Roman Catholic church, under the pope, back in the early days after Christ. They were tortured on ugly man-made instruments and murdered by the very religious order you profess is so perfect. That is why they protested. It isn't perfect. No religion is. They all are part of the whole. A learning experience. To come to know about the Savior. [/quote]

Sorry, but you have been lied to. And no one said the Catholic Church is perfect. We have asserted that it is the pillar and bulwark of truth. And that, as St. Paul confirms, it is. Here is some late night reading for yourself:

[img]http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/0898707811.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.tanbooks.com/shop_image/large/crus1198x.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.tanbooks.com/shop_image/large/howt1179x.jpg[/img]

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Illustro' date='Mar 20 2006, 04:18 AM'][color=blue]38: And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
39: And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
40: But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41: And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42: And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43: And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.[/color]

St. Luke. Chapter 23

It was THAT simple!
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Matthew 7:21 "Not every one who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. "

It's that simple!

Oh wait, no it isn't.

God desires all to be saved, and the story of salvation can be understood by even the smallest child, however, theology is wrought with difficulty, and the answer is not found by declaring "everyone is lead by the Holy Spirit" as Jesussaves has said becuase he has quickly found out that he can't debunk Catholics as quickly as he thought he could. If God is not the author of confusion, then 32,000+ denominations are not right. They are wrong. If the Catholic Church is what she says she is, the Church that was founded by Jesus Christ, than how could she say that she is anything other than that? It is your job to pray and to study the scriptures and to learn to see if this is true because of the situation that you find yourself in.

All Protestants who are validly baptized share in communio non plena. You are members of the body of Christ by your baptisms, but are not fully incorperated into the Church, the bride of Christ, His body. Don't be afraid of asking questions, and even more so, don't be afraid of finding answers.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Illustro' date='Mar 20 2006, 01:53 AM']The second part of the work though, I'm not too interested in because I notice that Roman Catholics can be arrogant about their religion enough to knock down others without even realizing it. I'm not a Protestant, though I read about what happened to those people who were murdered by the Roman Catholic church, under the pope, back in the early days after Christ. They were tortured on ugly man-made instruments and murdered by the very religious order you profess is so perfect. [/quote]Yes, praytell where have you been getting your history lessons? I have never heard, even from Chick tracts, that the Catholics persecuted Christians right after Christ.

No religion is perfect? I would beg to differ. Why would our Lord command us to be perfect as He is perfect without giving us the means to do so? The Church has its human element which fails occasionally, but the Church in itself is indeed the Bride of Christ.

Nice link, and I thought it was Catholics who bashed other religions.

[Illustro]

Hi Brother Adam, and Paphnutius. There is something I found today that may help you to understand what is meant in this debate about simple verses complex. It's in a parable... so you must do some comparison work.

1: For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.
2: And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
3: And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,

4: And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.
5: Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.
6: And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?

7: They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.
8: So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.
9: And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.

10: But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.
11: And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,
12: Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.

13: But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
14: Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.
15: Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

16: So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

From St. Matthew Chapter 20